"I don't know yours, but my concept on this is as simply as that.Not sure whether you are referring to me, but I do not envision things or something like that, what I'm saying is just something already written in the Quran and shown by the Prophet. "
"I don't know yours, but my concept on this is as simply as that.
>>>And I am not trying to convince you or anyone else. <<<
>>>You can take what I have mentioned if you like it or leave it if you don't.<<<
Absent a Creator and in the case of Christians, the Creator's antagonist, we are, in the end, solely responsible for what we do and what we say. There's no blaming it on, or attributing it to some entity for which there is no good evidence.
Linguistically, a case can be made, and has been, that the fundamental statement of Islam -la illaha ila allah - does not necessarily imply a personal god.
It can be interpreted as: "Don't take seriously what isn't serious".
How does that work? The word allah contains the root "worship" but that can also mean "take seriously". Thus the word can mean: "that which is to be taken seriously".
The verb of the statement is illaha - worship or take seriously.
It is good advice not to take seriously what isn't serious. Insisting on the minutiae of religion to the point of killing people who don't agree would seem to me a breach of this original injunction. So is protesting about cartoons and Salman Rushdie - trivia.
"God in Islam is not only majestic and sovereign, but also a personal God: According to the Qur'an, God is nearer to a person than his jugular vein. (Quran 50:16)[9]God responds to those in need or distress whenever they call. Above all, God guides humanity to the right way, “the holy way "
Mark,
If this is what you meant with people who rely on reason, than you are right I do not agree with your concept. No offence.
You see, if you don't know about something or you did not found the evidence just yet, it is too early to make an assumption that it has strictly no truth in it.
Humans tend to assume that 'evidence' is only based on our limited physical investigation and 'brain power' only. Even if you can't find the evidence now, you might find it sometimes in the future. If we live 2000 years ago and someone says to us 'the world is not flat', we might not believe in him and say this people is crazy simply because we say there is no evidence to support this, although the sign that the world is not flat is there (nobody actually found the earth's starting and finishing point).
In comparison, everyone know that there is soul, we know it is something in the inside, but who can give evidence that soul actually exist. But the sign is there.
If we knew something, it might not be all. If we don't know, it does not mean it does not exist at all.
Religion is about way of life and the sign of God is everywhere, if we actually care.
What I meant by this is I'm not trying to convince anybody to accept my faith. It is your personal choice.
>>> In comparison, everyone know that there is soul . . . <<<
>>> and the sign of God is everywhere, if we actually care. <<<
>No. To the contrary, I don't think there is any such thing. Every time someone tries to define it, it turns into a lot of hand-waving and no substance.<
>For believers, perhaps so. For non-believers, not so much. I see no signs that I would interpret as god(s).<
So be it.
>>>If this is what you meant with people who rely on reason, than you are right I do not agree with your concept. No offence.<<<
>>>You see, if you don't know about something or you did not found the evidence just yet, it is too early to make an assumption that it has strictly no truth in it.<<<
>>>In comparison, everyone know that there is soul, we know it is something in the inside, but who can give evidence that soul actually exist. But the sign is there.<<<
>>>If we knew something, it might not be all. If we don't know, it does not mean it does not exist at all.<<<
>>>What I meant by this is I'm not trying to convince anybody to accept my faith. It is your personal choice.<<<
>> In comparison, everyone know that there is soul,
Hi, abdulrahim. Can you tell me what a soul is?
You say that 'it is something in the inside.' Can you say more about it? I don't know whether I should believe in something unless I understand what that thing is.
So can you define 'a soul' for me?
Thanks.
>>>Humans tend to assume that 'evidence' is only based on our limited physical investigation and 'brain power' only. Even if you can't find the evidence now, you might find it sometimes in the future. If we live 2000 years ago and someone says to us 'the world is not flat', we might not believe in him and say this people is crazy simply because we say there is no evidence to support this,<<<<
You mean flat as being a surface spread out as in 13:3; 15:19; 50:7; 51:48; 79:30; 88:20; and 91:6? And whereby the Earth doesn't revolve around the Sun but the Sun around the Earth as in 13:2; 21:33; 35:13; 36:38; and 36:40?
>>>>although the sign that the world is not flat is there (nobody actually found the earth's starting and finishing point).<<<
You mean rising and setting points as in 18:86 and 18:90 which are actually peopled? Although I can understand someone 14 centuries ago might not know better, I would think a creator deity would have sent an angel that did know better.
I must be making a mistaken assumption then, based on language that I've heard concerning a single all powerful deity who caused an angel to contact Muhammad. And, BTW, THIS Wiki article disagrees with you on the subject of a personal God:
If "allah" means at its linguistic root "that which is to be worshipped" then it does not necessarily mean a personal conscious being, though religionists always interpret it as such. I suspect that Mohammed was being more subtle than his alleged followers.
If we live 2000 years ago and someone says to us 'the world is not flat'
It is often claimed that people earlier than the time of, say Columbus, believed the world was flat. But Eratosthenes a Greek had already made a fairly accurate measurement of the circumference of the earth. I think the educated knew quite well that the earth was a sphere, quite possibly at least early as Sumerian times.
Try this wikipedia article on the subject.
>>>If "allah" means at its linguistic root "that which is to be worshipped" then it does not necessarily mean a personal conscious being, though religionists always interpret it as such.<<<
So "that which is to be worshipped" could be something silly like a meteorite? If so, and if anyone has an urge to daily prostrate toward it, there's a much bigger one at New York's American Museum of Natural History .
>>>>I suspect that Mohammed was being more subtle than his alleged followers.<<<<
Based on what?
The meaning of the Arabic language.
>I leave no stone unturned. I have found all claims to have absolutely no basis<
It is your choice what you want belief in.
>I hold no such belief.<
If you say so.
>Yes, and that part - "it could be," usually ends up with the unspoken but thoroughly implied "therefore it is," that people rely on for their evidence. My reply is, that almost anything "could be." A rather intelligent man illustrates this idea by comparing some claims to his that he has a dragon in his garage. The question is not what "could be," but rather, is "how likely is it?"<
Whatever as you see fit.
>>>Religion is about way of life and the sign of God is everywhere, if we actually care.<<<
>Some people in England say that crop circles are signs of aliens visiting earth. I don't see crop circles as anything other than human made geometric designs using crushed grass or hay.<
Exactly.
>And again, in order for one sect of one religion to be more correct, it is first incumbent upon those people to show that there is any such thing as God. Until then, I will be convinced that they are doing exactly what they want to do, and blaming it on the God that they can't seem to show exists in the first place.<
I'm sorry I do not have the ability to bring God in front of you.
>>> It is your choice what you want belief in. <<<
Hi Carver,
To be honest with you, I know nothing more than you do. I know that when we are dead our body will decay, but what happen to our consciousness, intelligence, feeling and anger?
I do have however, some explanation based from the Quran (that if you believe Quran is a reliable source in the first place);
Surah Al-Baqarah verse 2-3;
(Meaning);
2. This Book is without doubt (as regard to its Divine origin and perfection), a guide for those who are God-conscious (taqwa);
3. Who believe in the unseen, and are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have given them.
'Unseen' or 'Ghayb' is something that we cannot see or feel with our humanly attributes, or the evidence will be shown only later to us. This include God himself, heaven and hell, souls, angels and so on.
There are many verses explaining about the unseens, but as I said there is no point to brought it forward unless you consider Quran to be a legitimate source.
Ab >> If you say so.<<
That would seem to indicate that you don't believe that Mark lacks belief in deities (or, for that matter, ghosties and ghoulies and long-leggited beasties and things that go BUMP in the night). <g>
Do you think that Mark is lying to you about that, or that he's simply deluded?
>>Whatever as you see fit.<<
In case you haven't followed the link to Sagan's dragon, I'll lay it out for you.
Abdul, I have a dragon in my garage.
You look at me as if I'm crazy or at least just pulling your leg (an American expression meaning telling you an deliberate untruth for fun).
You say, "Uh, yeah, sure. If you have a dragon in your garage, I'd like to see it."
I say, "Sure, man. C'mon around back and I'll show you." I raise the garage door, smile and say, "There she is."
You look into an obviously empty garage, with a few tools and pieces of junk on the floor and reply with, "There is no dragon there."
"Sure there is," I say.
"I don't see one," you reply.
"Well, that's because she's invisible."
You roll your eyes and decide to humor me for a bit.
"Okay, I see a can of spray paint. If she's really there, you could paint her and make visible."
"Good thinking, Abdulrahim. Very good idea. Unfortunately it won't work."
"Why?"
"Well, she's incorporeal."
By this time you're a little annoyed and determined not to let me get away with this japery.
"Okay, fine. I see a bag of cement there, too. Scatter some on the floor and if she's really there she'll leave footprints."
"Good thinking again, Abdul. But that won't work either."
Annoyed, you yell at me, "Why not?"
"She's weightless."
Feeling a bit frustrated, you ask, "Does this dragon breathe fire, like it says in the books?"
"Indeed she does," I reply.
"Fine. My brother in law works for the power company and he goes around with an infrared scanner looking for poor insulation causing heat leaks in people's houses.
"If your dragon is there, then it ought to show up on the infrared scanner."
"Wonderful idea, but there's just one tiny problem. This dragon breathes heatless fire."
So, set aside your frustration for a moment and see if you can answer this question.
How does an invisible, incorporeal, weightless dragon that breathes heatless fire differ from no dragon at all?
Could you answer that, please? Pretty please? Pretty please with sugar on it?<g>
I'm trusting that you will have a trenchant piercing response.<g>
Every government is a parliament of whores. The trouble is, in a democracy, the whores are us.--P. J. O'Rourke
>> To be honest with you, I know nothing more than you do. I know that when we are dead our body will decay, but what happen to our consciousness, intelligence, feeling and anger?
I don't know. It's something I've thought about -- quite a bit -- but I can't find any evidence. No one comes back from the dead to tell me what happened. No scientific equipment can study what happens to us after death.
The world is full of prophets and holy books which claim to know the answer, but I haven't seen evidence that one book is truer than the others.
>> I do have however, some explanation based from the Quran (that if you believe Quran is a reliable source in the first place);
Why do you believe that the Quran is a reliable source of truth?
>> 2. This Book is without doubt (as regard to its Divine origin and perfection), a guide for those who are God-conscious (taqwa);
The Christian Bible also claims that it is the final source of truth. Why do you believe the Quran but not the Bible or the Book of Mormon?
>> There are many verses explaining about the unseens, but as I said there is no point to brought it forward unless you consider Quran to be a legitimate source.
I will be happy to listen if you want to tell me why I should consider the Quran a legitimate source.
