Political Debate

     Go!
Prospero Blocks


 

Chat Center

We the People
Topic: Anything you want to talk about.

Board Folders

Republicans: 71096 msgs in 1830 dscns, Latest: 5:01 PMRepublicans
71096 msgs in 1830 dscns
Latest: 5:01 PM
Democrats: 46968 msgs in 1024 dscns, Latest: 3:01 PMDemocrats
46968 msgs in 1024 dscns
Latest: 3:01 PM
American Issues: 120688 msgs in 2535 dscns, Latest: 4:38 PMAmerican Issues
120688 msgs in 2535 dscns
Latest: 4:38 PM
Gun Rights: 54044 msgs in 847 dscns, Latest: Feb-8 Gun Rights
54044 msgs in 847 dscns
Latest: Feb-8
The Obama Administration: 117520 msgs in 2251 dscns, Latest: 5:28 PMThe Obama Admi...
117520 msgs in 2251 dscns
Latest: 5:28 PM
Marginal Issues: 141974 msgs in 8745 dscns, Latest: 5:39 PMMarginal Issues
141974 msgs in 8745 dscns
Latest: 5:39 PM
Religion & Science: 125168 msgs in 1298 dscns, Latest: 2:29 PMReligion ...
125168 msgs in 1298 dscns
Latest: 2:29 PM
The Courts: 27875 msgs in 349 dscns, Latest: 1:57 PMThe Courts
27875 msgs in 349 dscns
Latest: 1:57 PM
Bill of Rights: 30139 msgs in 358 dscns, Latest: Jan-26 Bill of Rights
30139 msgs in 358 dscns
Latest: Jan-26
Congress: 9510 msgs in 3483 dscns, Latest: 12:37 PMCongress
9510 msgs in 3483 dscns
Latest: 12:37 PM
Campaign 2010: 66520 msgs in 1889 dscns, Latest: 4:42 PMCampaign 2010
66520 msgs in 1889 dscns
Latest: 4:42 PM
The Economy: 32369 msgs in 645 dscns, Latest: Feb-7 The Economy
32369 msgs in 645 dscns
Latest: Feb-7
The Media: 57771 msgs in 1304 dscns, Latest: 3:27 PMThe Media
57771 msgs in 1304 dscns
Latest: 3:27 PM
International Affairs: 145423 msgs in 2688 dscns, Latest: Feb-8 International ...
145423 msgs in 2688 dscns
Latest: Feb-8
Message Area
Religion & Science

A Cinderella Story

 Subscribe SubscribeGet a printer-friendly version of this discussion Print Discussion 

#1 of 17

     Posted 7/18/08 9:27 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5736  Last 2:31 PM
To  All      [Msg # 206798.1 ]    

Straight from the heart of Pakistan is a tale that will warm some hearts and outrage the Islamophobes. This is a tale of how Sabah Younas 13, and Anila Younas 10, met their Princes in shining turbans: a proud fruit vendor Muhammad arif Bajwa and Falak Sher Gill and his son.

Sabah and Anila Younas, even though living in a cradle of Islam, and on everyside surrounded by Allah's blessings, had had the misfortune of being born to, and at the mercy of "cross worshippers". Only an act of supreme magnanimity could correct this situation; in other words nothing less than a ghazwa. It fell upon Muhammad arif Bajwa, Allah reward him, to carry out this ghazwa; he may have been moved by magnanimity, or it could have been attraction for the pre-teens; the story is not clear; but makes no difference.

The ghazwa

The moment for the ghazwa presented itself on June 26, 2007. While Sabah and Anila Younas were visiting an uncle, Muhammad arif Bajwa struck as soon as opportunity presented itself and made away with young Sabah and Anila Younas.

One must also note Muhammad arif Bajwas' attention to detail; or it could be that young Sabah and Anila Younas simply found this sublime figure irresistible. Their conversion to Islam was swift, as was the marriage of Sabah Younas to the son of Bajwas' confederate, Falak Sher Gill.

There were the usual noises of coercion, rape, kidnapping etc from islamophobes and "cross worshippers"; but all that must be discarded. Muhammad arif Bajwa did everything according to the book: permitted intimacy to a moslem are his wives and those that he has possessed by his right hand. This ghazwa was conducted no different than other historic ghazwas.

But more important. As it is not permissible that a non-moslem have custody over a moslem; the family of Sabah and Anila Younas lost custody of the kids as soon as the kids rejected "cross worshipping" and embraced Islam.

Muhammad arif Bajwa promptly went to the local police station and presented the facts to the local police, explaining the reversion of the kids to Islam, claiming custody of them, and in consequence the lose of custody of the biological parents. The local police dutifully summoned the parents and presented them with the facts of the situation.

The case.

The parents, backed by other "cross worshippers", went to great lengths to create difficulties. Rape charges were carelessly thrown around, even though the kids were older than Aisha bint abu Bakr when Mahomet consummated the marriage. It was ridiculous to claim kidnapping as well, as the reversion of the kids to Islam ended any custodial rights the "cross worshippers" may have on them. Lots of unnecessary fuss.

The case was presided over by District judge Mian Muhammad Naeem, of the section of Muzaffargarh, who demanded to see the kids. Due care was taken to protect the 10 and 13 year olds from any mischief and undue pressure that the "cross worshippers" may have been contemplating. A phalanx of no less than 30 fierce fellows flanked the kids as they testified to the Judge on their reversion. Mercifully their appearance was limited by the Judge to a few minutes; and their "cross worshipping" parents were not allowed contact with them.

Judge Mian Muhammad Naeem ruled correctly that the reversion of the kids to Islam was legit; and furthermore that the biological parents, as non-moslems, lost custody. An interpretation of Islam frowns on "cross worshippers" having custody over moslems.

The above tale is an adaptation from the cite below.

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=12771&size=A

 

Juin

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#2 of 17

     Posted 7/18/08 9:34 PM   
simongcon
 
From  simongcon  Posts 26193  Last 6/26/09
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.2 Message 206798.2 replying to 206798.1 206798.1 ]    

Straight from the heart of Pakistan is a tale that will warm some hearts and outrage the Islamophobes. This is a tale of how Sabah Younas 13, and Anila Younas 10, met their Princes in shining turbans: a proud fruit vendor Muhammad arif Bajwa and Falak Sher Gill and his son.

An incredible 'love' story.   Just 12 and 10 years old, so sad. I can't imagine how the parents must feel. 

 

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#3 of 17

     Posted 7/18/08 9:48 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5736  Last 2:31 PM
To  simongcon      [Msg # 206798.3 Message 206798.3 replying to 206798.2 206798.2 ]    

Simon<<An incredible 'love' story.   Just 12 and 10 years old, so sad. I can't imagine how the parents must feel.<<

It was all done according to the book. Dont bother with what some western appeasers will like to believe; the fact is that as a Cardinal rule moslems hold Mahomet as the most exemplary of men, to be emulated in everything; if a practice or example can be reliably linked to Mahomet then it becomes law.

That places minimum marriage for women at six years old and consummation at nine years old. Those are the ages of Aisha bint abu Bakr when Mahomet married her and when he consummated the marriage. No other lower ages can be related to Mahomet

 

Juin

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#4 of 17

     Posted 7/18/08 10:01 PM   
simongcon
 
From  simongcon  Posts 26193  Last 6/26/09
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.4 Message 206798.4 replying to 206798.3 206798.3 ]    

Simon<<An incredible 'love' story.   Just 12 and 10 years old, so sad. I can't imagine how the parents must feel.<<

It was all done according to the book. Dont bother with what some western appeasers will like to believe; the fact is that as a Cardinal rule moslems hold Mahomet as the most exemplary of men, to be emulated in everything; if a practice or example can be reliably linked to Mahomet then it becomes law.

That places minimum marriage for women at six years old and consummation at nine years old. Those are the ages of Aisha bint abu Bakr when Mahomet married her and when he consummated the marriage. No other lower ages can be related to Mahomet

Sounds about like that cult in Texas where they force underage girls to marry old guys.  Neither are good for young girls.  You would think that women's rights groups would be outraged and involved.  But they are more worried about preserving abortion.  What a goofy world we live in.

 

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#5 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 12:55 AM   
glenofthegods
 
From  glenofthegods  Posts 188  Last Jan-29
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.5 Message 206798.5 replying to 206798.1 206798.1 ]    

Hi Juin,

How do you explain someone like "Ted Haggard"?  President of the "National Association of Evangelicals" a married reverend having a homosexual affair, and taking meth?  He was a close confidant of President Bush (talked to him every Sunday according to GW), and looked to him for spiritual guidance.  Does that sound like a good Christian story?


Edited 7/19/08   by  glenofthegods
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#6 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 11:04 AM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5736  Last 2:31 PM
To  simongcon      [Msg # 206798.6 Message 206798.6 replying to 206798.4 206798.4 ]    

simon>>Neither are good for young girls.  You would think that women's rights groups would be outraged and involved.  But they are more worried about preserving abortion.  What a goofy world we live in.<<

The Pakistan story is useful in busting the fake Islam that appeasers of Islam try to sell in the west. In the context of Sharia the kidnapper/rapists acted strictly according to the book and were vindicated both by the local court and the police.

You notice that because the kidnapper quickly presented a "conversion certificate of sorts"; the police saw it no more as a kidnapping case. What then kicked in was a custodial issue. The police and court sided with the kidnapper since the biological parents, being non-moslems, automatically lost custody of the kids: a non-moslem cannot have custody of a moslem.

Neither the judge nor the police addressed the coercion issue in reference  to the conversion. Could that be because Islam does not exclude coercion as a tool of conversion?

The police and judge did not address the marriage and sex with minor issue as well. The Sharia places 9 years as minimum after the example of Mahomet, and both kids were above nine.

The travesty in this case is not the kidnapping and rape, crimes will always occur. The monstrosity is Islam itself which reduced the rights of non-moslems.

 

Juin

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#7 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 11:06 AM   
Dave Tucker - SL-
 
From  Dave Tucker - SL-  Posts 20258  Last 7/8/09
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.7 Message 206798.7 replying to 206798.6 206798.6 ]    
The travesty in this case is not the kidnapping and rape, crimes will always occur. The monstrosity is Islam itself which reduced the rights of non-moslems.>>>

You do realize, do you not, that the practice you complain of involving Islam also occurred involving Christians and Jews?


 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#8 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 11:23 AM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5736  Last 2:31 PM
To  Dave Tucker - SL-      [Msg # 206798.8 Message 206798.8 replying to 206798.7 206798.7 ]    

Juin<<The travesty in this case is not the kidnapping and rape, crimes will always occur. The monstrosity is Islam itself which reduced the rights of non-moslems.>>>

David Tucker<<You do realize, do you not, that the practice you complain of involving Islam also occurred involving Christians and Jews?<<

Christians and Jews will have to answer for their crimes, AND Islam will have to answer for its crimes.

Christian perfidy does not excuse Islamic perfidy. The implication that because others have been perfidious Islam must be free from assault is absurd.

My position is that Islam should gracefully submit to the scourge of reason like Christianity before it.

Are you suggesting that Islam not submit to laicism and republicanism?

 

Juin


 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#9 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 11:39 AM   
Dave Tucker - SL-
 
From  Dave Tucker - SL-  Posts 20258  Last 7/8/09
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.9 Message 206798.9 replying to 206798.8 206798.8 ]    

Are you suggesting that Islam not submit to laicism and republicanism?>>>


No more nor less than Christianity and/or Judaism or any other religion.  And, in point of fact a number of Muslim countries do not adhere to Shiria  - they are secular and republican. Even what is  considered to be Shiria is subject to discussion and debate among the varieties of Islam. You ignore that at _your_ peril.

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#10 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 11:39 AM   
simongcon
 
From  simongcon  Posts 26193  Last 6/26/09
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.10 Message 206798.10 replying to 206798.6 206798.6 ]    

The police and judge did not address the marriage and sex with minor issue as well. The Sharia places 9 years as minimum after the example of Mahomet, and both kids were above nine.

The travesty in this case is not the kidnapping and rape, crimes will always occur. The monstrosity is Islam itself which reduced the rights of non-moslems.

Which is not equality and fairness for all.   Obviously none here would want to live in a country like that, under sharia laws.  Many ignore those realities of islam since it doesn't affect them.

 

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#11 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 11:45 AM   
Michael H.
 
From  Michael H.  Posts 26703  Last 7/8/09
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.11 Message 206798.11 replying to 206798.6 206798.6 ]    
>> Could that be because Islam does not exclude coercion as a tool of conversion? <<

You mean "coercion" like Christians (especially Roman Catholics) have used at various times during their history?


>> Spanish Inquisition

A form of torture similar to waterboarding called toca, along with garrucha (or strappado) and the most frequently used potro (or the rack), was used infrequently during the trial portion of the Spanish Inquisition process. "The toca, also called tortura del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had the impression of drowning". One source has claimed that the use of water as a form of torture also had profound religious significance to the Inquisitors. <<


Source: Waterboarding: Spanish Inquisition





 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#12 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 11:56 AM   
Michael H.
 
From  Michael H.  Posts 26703  Last 7/8/09
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.12 Message 206798.12 replying to 206798.8 206798.8 ]    
>> My position is that Islam should gracefully submit to the scourge of reason like Christianity before it.  <<

Christianity did no such thing.  Some individual Christians have, but the religion as a whole has never done that.

By the way, why on earth would you regard "reason" as a "scourge?"





 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#13 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 1:41 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5736  Last 2:31 PM
To  Dave Tucker - SL-      [Msg # 206798.13 Message 206798.13 replying to 206798.9 206798.9 ]    

Juin<<Are you suggesting that Islam not submit to laicism and republicanism?>>>


David Tucker<<No more nor less than Christianity and/or Judaism or any other religion.<<

If they are equally culpable. I dont suppose an assault on Islam- for the sentencing to death this month of Mohammad Shafeeq for crimes against the "dignity" of Islam- must be accompanied by an equally vicious attack on Buddhism to even things up:)? Must it?

Shouldnt Buddhism at least start engaging in prosecution of crimes against the "dignity" of Buddha to warrant an assault on it?

 

David Tucker<<And, in point of fact a number of Muslim countries do not adhere to Shiria  - they are secular and republican.<<

The attack is on Islam as a religio/political creed. If a country, even though majority moslem, is secular and republican then I have no problem with it?

 

David Tucker<<Even what is  considered to be Shiria is subject to discussion and debate among the varieties of Islam. You ignore that at _your_ peril.<<

I am not impressed by the debates.

The kidnap, forced conversion, forced marriage and rape of 13 and 10 year old Sabah and Anila Younas, under the auspices of Islam, are not matters of debate.

The knifing to death of Theo van Gogh is not a matter of debates.

The death fatwas on Ayaan Hirsi Ali are not matters of debates.

The public hanging in Iran of 16 yr old Atefah Saahaleh for corrupting 51 yr old Ali Durabi, are not matters of debate.

The murder by her father of Canadian Aksa Parvez for "dishonouring" family are not matters of debate....

Those are the people at peril, not me.

It is amazing that you who prefer to gloss over the perils of those at the mercy of Islam will suggest that I who speak for the victims am imperiled.:)

 

Juin 

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#14 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 1:48 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5736  Last 2:31 PM
To  simongcon      [Msg # 206798.14 Message 206798.14 replying to 206798.10 206798.10 ]    

Juin<<The travesty in this case is not the kidnapping and rape, crimes will always occur. The monstrosity is Islam itself which reduced the rights of non-moslems.<<

simon<<Which is not equality and fairness for all.   Obviously none here would want to live in a country like that, under sharia laws.  Many ignore those realities of islam since it doesn't affect them.<<

I dont think they ignore it because it doesnt affect them. It is more insidious.

The difficulty some have in denouncing the horrors of Islam is that consciously, or unconsciously they consider Islam a kindred spirit against what they deem the ultimate evil: Judeo/Christianism.

If one convinces oneself that Judeo/Christianism is the evil font from which springs all evil then it is easy to explain Islam's horrors as actually a consequence, if not a reaction to Judeo/Christian Imperialism and Hegemony. In that light you will note the regularity with which any debate on Islam always ends up a debate on Judeo/Christianism.:)

 

Juin

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#15 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 1:48 PM   
Dave Tucker - SL-
 
From  Dave Tucker - SL-  Posts 20258  Last 7/8/09
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.15 Message 206798.15 replying to 206798.13 206798.13 ]    

I am not impressed by the debates.>>.


Well, aren't you special.

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#16 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 2:04 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5736  Last 2:31 PM
To  Dave Tucker - SL-      [Msg # 206798.16 Message 206798.16 replying to 206798.15 206798.15 ]    

David Tucker<<Well, aren't you special.

I submit with much humility that I am special.:) I am the muse of reason. The sourge of Islam. If Mahomet is Caesar, then I am his Brutus.:)

 

Juin

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#17 of 17

     Posted 7/19/08 7:22 PM   
simongcon
 
From  simongcon  Posts 26193  Last 6/26/09
To  Juin      [Msg # 206798.17 Message 206798.17 replying to 206798.14 206798.14 ]    

If one convinces oneself that Judeo/Christianism is the evil font from which springs all evil then it is easy to explain Islam's horrors as actually a consequence, if not a reaction to Judeo/Christian Imperialism and Hegemony. In that light you will note the regularity with which any debate on Islam always ends up a debate on Judeo/Christianism.:)

I do believe you are right about that.   Some prefer to defend the suicide bombings and raping and murdering of women in islam and worry more that someone  might say God bless you if they sneeze.

 

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply
 Subscribe SubscribeGet a printer-friendly version of this discussion Print Discussion 
Religion & Science

A Cinderella Story

  
 
     
 
 

Sponsored Links of the Day

 
• 

Netscape Internet Service


As low as $9.95 a month. Choose the features you want like Web Accelerator, E-Mail Virus Scan and Advanced Spam Blocker for just a few dollars more -- Sign up today!
http://www.getnetscape.com
 
• 

Looking for Love?


Match.com...The best way to meet local singles. Start your search now!
http://www.match.com
 
• 

Get A Flat Screen


Are you still squinting with a dim, fuzzy computer monitor? Get a crisp new flat panel that saves space and energy. Upgrade your Computer!
http://search.netscape.com
 

Welcome, Guest

  • Post a message
  • New messages to you
  • Log in

Start Search
Advanced Search

Prospero Blocks
 
 
Special Offers
 
 
 

Finding People

 
 
 

Cool Clicks!

 
 
 
© 2009 Netscape Communications Corp. All rights reserved.

Legal Notices | Privacy Policy