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Diana Gabaldon

Jamie and his scars

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#1 of 12

     Posted Nov-4 8:32 PM   
Tess
 
From  Tess  Posts 1352  Last Nov-24
To  All      [Msg # 65712.1 ]    

I wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this subject, as it was something that struck me as important.

In OUTLANDER, Jamie attempted to keep his scars hidden from the people he knows. He didn't want to be pitied for them, but he also didn't want to be labeled by them. It's as if he was saying, "I am not my scars." It was the ultimate insult to injury that Dougal forced him to reveal them night after night to a crowd of strangers.

Now....Getting into that theme of Identity that starts in OUTLANDER, and continues through the story into ECHO....
What I found interesting in ECHO was Jamie's reaction to Daniel Morgan ("He's a-doing it again.") showing off his own flogging scars ('...his shoulders had relaxed.').
What I found even more interesting was that Jamie deliberately reveals his scars in ECHO.

Thoughts?

Tess
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#2 of 12

     Posted Nov-4 9:50 PM   
Hiedi
 
From  Hiedi  Posts 89  Last Nov-24
To  Tess      [Msg # 65712.2 Message 65712.2 replying to 65712.1 65712.1 ]    
Hi Tess
I felt that Daniel Morgan and Jamie as well were saying "Look what the British did to me and yet I survived. They will fight us but we will be victorious because we have endured this before."
Hiedi
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#3 of 12

     Posted Nov-4 10:47 PM   
wynnleaf
 
From  wynnleaf  Posts 156  Last Nov-24
To  Tess      [Msg # 65712.3 Message 65712.3 replying to 65712.1 65712.1 ]    (Unread)
I think that earlier the scars were a symbol of having been humiliated and helpless, and in the power of others.  When Dougal forced Jamie to reveal them, it increased the humiliation.   In not only being willing to show the scars, but actually to use them as a tool to get the attention of others, so as to get a message across, both Daniel Morgan and Jamie take the power back from that time of flogging, and expunge the humiliation.  No longer are the scars the symbol they were initially.  Instead, the scars become almost a banner.

wynnleaf
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#4 of 12

     Posted Nov-5 12:13 AM   
Elle
 
From  Elle  Posts 207  Last Nov-24
To  wynnleaf      [Msg # 65712.4 Message 65712.4 replying to 65712.3 65712.3 ]    

The scars--I have talked about this in some other posts, about coming to terms with the past and the time and distance we need to do that.  The scars are a part of the person but not the sum total and that is an understanding that comes with time.    Again, with reference to years of Holocaust research and many interviews in my academic life, I met some survivors who had their Auschwitz tattoo removed as soon as possible as a mark of shame or perhaps identity that they wanted to hide or discard in some ways.  Others learned to live with it as part of their lives and everything that happened to them and it is still not unusual in Israel to see that, especially in the summer when we wear short sleeves and sleeveless clothes.  What once would have been a mark of shame, humiliation and to some extent, especially in the early post war years of someone who did not stand up and fight (another myth that has been exploded), it has become something quite different--as I said, a part of who a person is but not the sum total.

In a similar vein, although not physical, until roughly the Bicentennial in Australia, people were reluctant to admit their ancestors had been transported convicts.  With research and understanding of the convict background including political dissent as well such petty crimes that seem unbelievable to us, it has become more a mark of pride.  Mental scars perhaps rather than physical???

That's my two cents!

Elle

 

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#5 of 12

     Posted Nov-5 7:00 AM   
Trish
 
From  Trish  Posts 134  Last Nov-18
To  Tess      [Msg # 65712.5 Message 65712.5 replying to 65712.1 65712.1 ]    (Unread)

Tess, I thought at that point Jamie was still trying to decide how he felt about Daniel Morgan. The reveal of his scars and his flamboyance about it (He's a doing it again) clicked with Jamie and made him accept him. It was totally different than Jamie has ever treated his scars...but somehow in that context worked for Jamie to build a trust with Daniel.

I felt he revealed his scars (if you are talking about the shirt off, holding onto the mast,showing them in the naval battle scene) as a desperate measure....trying anything to put a stop to the ship being sunk. Maybe there is a different scene you are thinking of?

also probably with age (as happens to most of us <g>) he is just getting better at accepting himself as he is....warts,scars and all.

Trish

 

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#6 of 12

     Posted Nov-5 7:25 AM   
Karen Henry
 
From  Karen Henry  Posts 4706  Last Nov-24
To  Trish      [Msg # 65712.6 Message 65712.6 replying to 65712.5 65712.5 ]    
Trish:

What about the letter Jamie writes to Claire (p. 759) in which he describes how he deliberately displayed his scars in front of a roomful of people in Paris?  I can't imagine him doing that before he met Daniel Morgan.

> also probably with age (as happens to most of us <g>) he is just getting better at accepting himself as he is....warts,scars and all. <

Yes.  Accepting those scars has been a lifelong process for Jamie, and I thought it was really interesting to see how his attitude changed over the course of this book.

Karen


Visit my blog here.

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#7 of 12

     Posted Nov-5 7:41 AM   
Trish
 
From  Trish  Posts 134  Last Nov-18
To  Karen Henry      [Msg # 65712.7 Message 65712.7 replying to 65712.6 65712.6 ]    

Karen (and Tess) , of course!! I knew I was forgetting a scene that was important about the scars. It's 4:30am and I'm at work so forgive my slowness!  Yes that scene in France was pretty amazing as Jamie made up so many things! I remember being shocked at all the fibs he was telling and also that he showed off his scars....and blamed them on the Indians!

Maybe meeting Daniel and seeing how he accepted/used his own scars helped Jamie in some ways with the acceptance of his own.

Trish

 

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#8 of 12

     Posted Nov-6 12:19 AM   
knitwytch
 
From  knitwytch  Posts 19  Last Nov-24
To  Trish      [Msg # 65712.8 Message 65712.8 replying to 65712.7 65712.7 ]    

>>> Yes that scene in France was pretty amazing as Jamie made up so many things! I remember being shocked at all the fibs he was telling and also that he showed off his scars....and blamed them on the Indians!<<<<

Maybe making up the story about how he got the scars is part of the reason he can show them. Showing them under false pretenses, so to speak, removes the intimacy and makes them just marks on his skin.

SharonO

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#9 of 12

     Posted Nov-6 3:13 AM   
Trish
 
From  Trish  Posts 134  Last Nov-18
To  knitwytch      [Msg # 65712.9 Message 65712.9 replying to 65712.8 65712.8 ]    (Unread)

Maybe making up the story about how he got the scars is part of the reason he can show them. Showing them under false pretenses, so to speak, removes the intimacy and makes them just marks on his skin.

SharonO, I think that is an astute observation.....changing how he got the scars to a story of his liking removes the stigmata/shame of the scars. He has decided it's fine to show them as Daniel does if its to his advantage!


Trish

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#10 of 12

     Posted Nov-6 3:33 AM   
metpatpetet
 
From  metpatpetet  Posts 1573  Last 2:09 AM
To  Trish      [Msg # 65712.10 Message 65712.10 replying to 65712.9 65712.9 ]    
I think the shame/stigma of flogging [or lack of it] is one of the emerging differences between the Colonies and the Crown.  In England, flogging was undoubtedly something to be hid; but so many of the colonists had fled their native countries [mainly the UK at this point, which found it very convenient to force or convince "undesirables" to emigrate] BECAUSE they had been flogged, imprisoned, or otherwise punished [remember that Georgia was founded as a debtors' colony]  that it almost became a sign of defiance: "You did your best, Geordie, and I still survive and flourish!"  It wasn't just Daniel Morgan.  My personal feeling is that even if the Crown hadn't mismanaged the Colonies as it did, thinking they were just cash cows for the British Crown, the Colonists would have separated from the Mother Country anyway, and maybe not much later than they did.  The realities of life on the new and raw continent, with its unknown horizons, was just too different from a place where everything--and everybody-- had effectively been ordered since the Domesday Book.

Metpatpetet

 

Any idiot can face a crisis.

It's this day-to-day living that wears you out.

-- Anton Chekhov

 

Blogging at Antigonos' Annals

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#11 of 12

     Posted Nov-6 4:27 AM   
Kelly
 
From  Kelly  Posts 6  Last Nov-16
To  Tess      [Msg # 65712.11 Message 65712.11 replying to 65712.1 65712.1 ]    (Unread)

I think at the point when Dougal made Jamie show is scars he was still very ashamed of them. As a result of him being flogged, his father had a heart attack and died. He is young then and has not come to terms/acceptance of them.

 

Morgan's is using his scars as a badge of courage and I think Jamie respects and relates to that because it takes a very courages man to endure such punishments. Also, the audience is not really viewing them in a negative light. Rather, they are viewing them as a rallying point and he uses this same technique in Paris to gather support and let them know they will prevail.

 

Kelly   

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#12 of 12

     Posted Nov-6 8:49 AM   
ZanMarie
 
From  ZanMarie  Posts 1729  Last Nov-24
To  metpatpetet      [Msg # 65712.12 Message 65712.12 replying to 65712.10 65712.10 ]    

Met,

<<<[remember that Georgia was founded as a debtors' colony]<<<

And remember that Oglethorpe only found 12 debtors "decent enough" to bring out of the 104 souls on the Anne. I have to wonder if the lovely, hospitable Mistress Olivier at Les Perles was a descendent of one of them. She and her husband were so nice to Jamie and Claire after they washed ashore at the end of Voyager.

Zan Marie =^..^=

blogging at: www.intheshadeofthecherrytree.blogspot.com

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Diana Gabaldon

Jamie and his scars

  
 
     

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