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Message Area
Multi-language

the word ace

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#1 of 19

     Posted Sep-15 9:22 AM   
earle robinson
 
From  earle robinson  Posts 566  Last Nov-22
To  All      [Msg # 2831.1 ]    

In the OED it says, “[After F. as.] In the war of 1914–18, an airman who had brought down ten enemy machines; a crack airman.” The word is used in this sense in French but means nearly 10 enemy aircraft. The ace was the word just below the 10 in an old card game from the 18th century.  The name of the game is manille. So, the expression, il est un as, means he has shot down almost 10 planes, i.e. 9 so far.

I note that the OED also says the term meaning someone who is outstanding or done an outstanding job is American usage. I wonder if the expression wasn’t borrowed from either the British usage or directly from French.

-er

Edited Sep-15   by  earle robinson
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#2 of 19

     Posted Sep-17 3:44 AM   
Hans Le Roy
 
From  Hans Le Roy  Posts 94  Last Oct-31
To  earle robinson      [Msg # 2831.2 Message 2831.2 replying to 2831.1 2831.1 ]    

Hi Earle,

I thought the French word had an English origin, and it is confirmed by CNRTKL

Étymol. et Hist. 1854, 17 sept. turf. (Dillon, Sport, p. 2, col. 3 ds Bonn.); 1892, 9 déc. p. ext. « champion (d'un sport quelconque) » (Rousseau, Vélo, p. 1, col. 1, ibid.). Subst. angl. crack « ce qui est digne d'éloge, exceptionnel » employé d'abord en parlant d'un cheval (1637 ds NED) puis d'un joueur; déverbal de to crack up « faire l'éloge de quelqu'un, le vanter », to crack signifiant proprement « faire du bruit en cassant, en craquant » d'où « prononcer à voix haute; fanfaronner, se vanter » (NED), v. aussi craquer.
http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/crack

Kind regards

Hans

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#3 of 19

     Posted Sep-17 8:26 AM   
earle robinson
 
From  earle robinson  Posts 566  Last Nov-22
To  Hans Le Roy      [Msg # 2831.3 Message 2831.3 replying to 2831.2 2831.2 ]    
The word crack is not the same as the word ace. I don't see the point of your message. For the former, here is the etymology from the oed:

1637 Shirley Hyde Park iv. iii, 1st Gent. What dost think, Jockey? 2nd Gent. The crack o' the field's against you.    1673 Dryden Marr. à la Mode v. i.    1703 English Spy 255 (Farmer) Most noble cracks and worthy cousin trumps.    1843 (title), Cracks of the Day [with engravings of celebrated race-horses].    1868 Daily Tel. 16 Apr., They were the ‘cracks’ of the regulars, as the Scottish and the London were the ‘cracks’ of the volunteers.    1881 Daily News 9 July 2 (Cricket) When the Harrow crack had made 90, he was badly missed at mid-off.    1886 Blackw. Mag. Aug. 227 Our leading counsel—we had engaged a couple of cracks—began to state our case.


-er
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#4 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 6:27 AM   
Hans Le Roy
 
From  Hans Le Roy  Posts 94  Last Oct-31
To  earle robinson      [Msg # 2831.4 Message 2831.4 replying to 2831.3 2831.3 ]    

Hi earle,

I understood the first message as a comment on the etymology of crack.

CU

Hans

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#5 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 11:24 AM   
Shazz/Sysop
 
From  Shazz/Sysop  Posts 83  Last Oct-30
To  Hans Le Roy      [Msg # 2831.5 Message 2831.5 replying to 2831.4 2831.4 ]    
Hi Hans,
And I would say that "crack" is a synonym for "ace" sometimes, like a "crack team of surgeons" vs. "an ace of a surgeon."

Sharon
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#6 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 11:59 AM   
earle robinson
 
From  earle robinson  Posts 566  Last Nov-22
To  Hans Le Roy      [Msg # 2831.6 Message 2831.6 replying to 2831.4 2831.4 ]    
No, it just happened that crack is used in the definition of the word ace.


-er
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#7 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 12:05 PM   
earle robinson
 
From  earle robinson  Posts 566  Last Nov-22
To  Shazz/Sysop      [Msg # 2831.7 Message 2831.7 replying to 2831.5 2831.5 ]    
But, crack is usually as an adjective, while ace is used in the substantive form. Of course, one could say, he is a crack, but usually one addes the substantive which the advective describes, crack marksman, for example. But, would one say a crack swimmer or a crack boxer?  Sounds clumsy to me. I'd use crack to describe only a few substantives, and most especially a marksman, a shot, gunner, etc. Checking in the oed I see no definition of crack as a noun which describes excellence, but almost everything else. The adjective doesn't seem to have much usage either, according to the oed.


-er
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#8 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 12:53 PM   
4merCL
 
From  4merCL  Posts 338  Last Oct-27
To  earle robinson      [Msg # 2831.8 Message 2831.8 replying to 2831.7 2831.7 ]    

>>  But, crack is usually as an adjective,  <<

Not to mention as a noun or a verb.

Best regards,  4merCL

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#9 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 1:33 PM   
earle robinson
 
From  earle robinson  Posts 566  Last Nov-22
To  4merCL      [Msg # 2831.9 Message 2831.9 replying to 2831.8 2831.8 ]    
I meant crack in the sense of excellence, where it is used uniquely as an adjective. The word has 20 definitions in the oed.


-er
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#10 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 3:22 PM   
Shazz/Sysop
 
From  Shazz/Sysop  Posts 83  Last Oct-30
To  earle robinson      [Msg # 2831.10 Message 2831.10 replying to 2831.7 2831.7 ]    
>>But, would one say a crack swimmer or a crack boxer?

Yes, you could. I agree it's not often used, but it can be.

Sharon
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#11 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 3:40 PM   
earle robinson
 
From  earle robinson  Posts 566  Last Nov-22
To  Shazz/Sysop      [Msg # 2831.11 Message 2831.11 replying to 2831.10 2831.10 ]    
Indeed. But not all that often, especially a crack boxer might be confused with a boxer who is a crack addict.


-er
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#12 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 3:55 PM   
John Barreiro
 
From  John Barreiro  Posts 23  Last 2:12 AM
To  earle robinson      [Msg # 2831.12 Message 2831.12 replying to 2831.11 2831.11 ]    
>>...especially a crack boxer might be confused with a boxer who is a crack addict.<<

I would call that "a cracked boxer"...<g>
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#13 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 4:02 PM   
DickWeltz (NYC)
 
From  DickWeltz (NYC)  Posts 191  Last Oct-28
To  earle robinson      [Msg # 2831.13 Message 2831.13 replying to 2831.11 2831.11 ]    

Indeed. But not all that often, especially a crack boxer might be confused with a boxer who is a crack addict.

Then you could, instead, say, "a crackerjack boxer."

 

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#14 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 4:07 PM   
earle robinson
 
From  earle robinson  Posts 566  Last Nov-22
To  DickWeltz (NYC)      [Msg # 2831.14 Message 2831.14 replying to 2831.13 2831.13 ]    
Is that better than being a wheaties' boxer?


-er
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#15 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 6:43 PM   
Shazz/Sysop
 
From  Shazz/Sysop  Posts 83  Last Oct-30
To  earle robinson      [Msg # 2831.15 Message 2831.15 replying to 2831.11 2831.11 ]    
>>Indeed. But not all that often, especially a crack boxer might be confused with a boxer who is a crack addict.

Actually, that thought occurred to me!

Sharon
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#16 of 19

     Posted Sep-18 6:46 PM   
4merCL
 
From  4merCL  Posts 338  Last Oct-27
To  earle robinson      [Msg # 2831.16 Message 2831.16 replying to 2831.11 2831.11 ]    

>>  especially a crack boxer might be confused with a boxer who is a crack addict.   <<

Or, perhaps, the person in a crack lab whose function is to package the product for transportation or sale.

Best regards,  4merCL

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#17 of 19

     Posted Sep-19 4:22 AM   
earle robinson
 
From  earle robinson  Posts 566  Last Nov-22
To  4merCL      [Msg # 2831.17 Message 2831.17 replying to 2831.16 2831.16 ]    
Since there is shadow boxing, similarly one might create crack boxing. The question then is does the crack become wider, larger after much usage.  A woman might be able to answer that more readily than a man.


-er
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#18 of 19

     Posted Oct-9 6:56 PM   
John Murff
 
From  John Murff  Posts 143  Last Oct-14
To  earle robinson      [Msg # 2831.18 Message 2831.18 replying to 2831.1 2831.1 ]    
In the war of 1914–18, an airman who had brought down ten enemy machines; a crack airman.  [was considered an ace.]

In WWII and subsequently, it took only five kills.  And in some areas ground kills counted. 
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#19 of 19

     Posted Oct-10 7:18 AM   
earle robinson
 
From  earle robinson  Posts 566  Last Nov-22
To  John Murff      [Msg # 2831.19 Message 2831.19 replying to 2831.18 2831.18 ]    
Given that the expression originated in france and described the exploit of someone who had all but achieved a kill of ten and that this was based on a very old card game called manille in which the ace is higher than a 9 and below a ten, I'll have to stick with my original explanation. The expression then crossed the french channel and became an english expression, too.


-er
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Multi-language

the word ace

  
 
     

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