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Need an accounting/payroll app.

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#1 of 19 Posted Oct-7 10:26 AM

From Frank B. (Forum Janitor) Posts 4689 Last 9:03 AM
To All [Msg # 129624.1 ]

I have come to the point that my home-grown OOo Calc spreadsheet, complete with array formulas and all, no longer meets the needs of my growing business. I have a choice: Take the time to substantially modify what I have (probably a two-week project, if I can do it at all), or move on to a full-blown accounting / payroll / invoicing application. I need to start investigating option 2.

What is out there?

I know of GnuCash, and will be looking for a forum that deals with it specifically. I have some specific needs, and I need to know 1) if GnuCash will do it and 2) how much learning/time it is going to take on my part to get it up and running. For me this is going to be like open-heart surgery. The business has to go on while I do the switch. I can't stop and experiment.

Does anyone know of anything else?

Thanks.

Frank.

-----------------------
Single booting Linux all day, every day, at home and at work.

#2 of 19 Posted Oct-7 11:43 AM

From raycleve Posts 331 Last Nov-24
To Frank B. (Forum Janitor) [Msg # 129624.2 129624.1 ]

Frank,
You might try linuxappfinder.com.
Cheers. Ray

Edited Oct-7 by raycleve

Edited Oct-7 by raycleve

#3 of 19 Posted Oct-7 12:12 PM

From Mike Hughes (Sysop) Posts 374 Last 6:39 AM
To Frank B. (Forum Janitor) [Msg # 129624.3 129624.1 ]

Frank

GnuCash is a pretty good general ledger for q small business but the last time I looked into it, the other apps were still very primitive. It could well be that they have improved. I use it for bookkeeping but I have not needed payroll or the other functions.

Mike

#4 of 19 Posted Oct-8 1:26 AM

From HM Murdock Posts 174 Last Nov-10
To Frank B. (Forum Janitor) [Msg # 129624.4 129624.1 ]

http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Linux_accounting

http://www.linuxledgers.com/

http://www.kalculate.com/

http://calamar.sourceforge.net/

HM
TANSTAAFL

#5 of 19 Posted Oct-8 10:11 AM

From Frank B. (Forum Janitor) Posts 4689 Last 9:03 AM
To HM Murdock [Msg # 129624.5 129624.4 ]

Bill:

Thanks for those links. Most of them do not support invoicing, but it is good to have an overview. The Wikipedia page you linked to gives a good overview, but the page represents 2007 information. It did give an honest assessment of several of the products, however, and I needed that.

I already have a post in to the Gnucash user mailing list, but have no answer back yet as to whether Gnucash will do all of what I need. Gnucash is short on invoicing abilities as well, it would seem.

I did a search under "Linux accounting software" and came up with another Wikipedia page with similar links. This page also links to Quasar, which is developed right here in Calgary no less. I realize it is not GPL, and all the possible problems that go with that. However, I don't mind paying for software that does the job, so I may drive across town to their offices and see what the product does. If nothing else, it will give me an idea of what is available. I am not an accountant, so I may need some hand holding. Quasar offers paid support, which may be of use to me. As they are local, I may also get them to set up some sort of custom implementation for me for a price.

I am impressed that there is so much available.

Frank.

-----------------------
Single booting Linux all day, every day, at home and at work.

#6 of 19 Posted Oct-9 12:21 PM

From Bev L [France] Posts 24 Last Nov-24
To Frank B. (Forum Janitor) [Msg # 129624.6 129624.1 ]

There's quite a bit available over on Source Forge for accounting applications. Payroll seems to be a bit trickier (then again, I'm looking for non-US payroll applications and that's a real bear).

We're currently using webERP, which includes some very useful inventory tracking. It's MySQL based and operates via a browser. The translation function for French has proven to be a problem for us, because of some persnickety requirements for paperwork here in France, but I've managed to use OpenOffice to create any forms (like invoices, proposals, etc.) directly from the data base that are unusable in the format they've provided.

They don't have a payroll application, so I'm back to a spreadsheet for that - but with only one employee (me) it's not that difficult.
Cheers,
Bev

#7 of 19 Posted Oct-9 2:11 PM

From RayM Posts 203 Last Nov-24
To Bev L [France] [Msg # 129624.7 129624.6 ]

As you point out, payroll is a very complex proposition compared to the basics like accounting and timekeeping. It's a state-by-state thing in the US and there may even be county and city related aspects in some areas. A very tough thing to do from an open source standpoint because of the division of labor interest.

#8 of 19 Posted Oct-9 9:27 PM

From Frank B. (Forum Janitor) Posts 4689 Last 9:03 AM
To Bev L [France] [Msg # 129624.8 129624.6 ]

Bev:

Thanks for the comments.

I agree that it is a real problem coming up with something that does the job. Seems the packages are either too big, or too small for my needs. GnuCash won't do payroll or invoicing, so it is out. WebERP is way beyond my needs.

I'm looking at a product called Quasar from Linux Canada. The author lives in Golden BC, just a few hours from here, and he has a small office right here in town. It appears to be a two-man operation, so I'm not sure if this has enough 'legs' to be what I want to invest in. I don't want to put time into moving my books to a product that is going to go away.

My third option, and one that is looking better all the time, is to just modify my OOo spreadsheet a bit further, perhaps by adding a few more fields in the invoices. At present, each invoice is a separate spreadsheet, and each one is saved as a separate numbered file. This decentralizes a lot, as any worker can create and/or modify any invoice on any machine in the shop.

Once the invoices are saved, I use a macro to post the pertinent contents of those invoices to a master spreadsheet. That master spreadsheet does all the work for me, keeping track of my expenses, pay owed to my sub-contractors, creates statements to the various auto dealers I do work for, and so on. As I technically sub-let all my work, I don't have a lot of tax stuff to worry about.

Any time I have to make changes, however, it is a good idea to look around and see if there is something better. I'm not sure that I've found anything that much better at this point. We'll see.

Frank.

-----------------------
Single booting Linux all day, every day, at home and at work.

#9 of 19 Posted Oct-10 2:24 PM

From HM Murdock Posts 174 Last Nov-10
To Frank B. (Forum Janitor) [Msg # 129624.9 129624.8 ]

Spreadsheet is the wrong tool. You need a database with a report generator (accounting programs are 1 or more databases with built in standard reports like invoices, trialbalance, income statement, etc). You don't have to write your own accounting program, there are accounting programs that use std databases like mysql or sqlite. There are report generators (if the acctng program doesan't have one) for those databases so you can easily generate custom reports.

As far as payroll goes, out sourcing can be very cost effective for a small business. At least in the US, there are payroll companies that do all the work including cutting the checks.

HM
TANSTAAFL

#10 of 19 Posted Nov-4 10:52 AM

From Frank B. (Forum Janitor) Posts 4689 Last 9:03 AM
To HM Murdock [Msg # 129624.10 129624.9 ]

Bill:

Well, I still haven't found a solution to my problem. There are lots of accounting apps out there, but few, if any, do invoicing.

>Spreadsheet is the wrong tool. You need a database<

I've looked at that, but the learning curve seemed to high at the time. I also have the issue that with Base, at least, you cannot have multiple concurrent users. I know you can with MySQL, and I even bought a book "Teach Yourself MySQL in 21 Days" but never really got into it.

I also wonder if putting all the eggs into the same basket may open up problems. Now, in practice, this is probably not the case, and one can always back up the file. However, what are the issues regarding possible file corruption? What do big corporations that DO put all their eggs in one database basket do in these cases?

At present, I have a separate file for each invoice. If one file gets corrupted, I can recreate a single file from the paper copy quite easily in a few minutes. Each month, I use an OOo macro to 'post' totals from each invoice to a master spreadsheet which does my payroll for me. I have a separate master spreadsheet for each month. Again, if one gets corrupted, I can easily recreate it from the invoice files.

My search for something else this time is not a question of scale, but more a question of building in more features. At present, each invoice represents the efforts of a single worker. With the expansion I am doing in the business, some invoices now represent the work of two different people (or possibly more in the future). I can write this into my current system if I spend a few days at it. However, any time I have to make major changes, everything is on the table again as far as finding a better way goes.

>You don't have to write your own accounting program, there are accounting programs that use std databases like mysql or sqlite. There are report generators (if the acctng program doesan't have one) for those databases so you can easily generate custom reports.<

I'd be interested in knowing what is available in Linux. Do you have any experience with any of them?

>As far as payroll goes, out sourcing can be very cost effective for a small business. At least in the US, there are payroll companies that do all the work including cutting the checks.<

I assume, however, that they are not going to work from paper invoices. Any idea of requirements for using a service like this?

Thanks.

Frank.

-----------------------
Single booting Linux all day, every day, at home and at work.

#11 of 19 Posted Nov-4 1:44 PM

From HM Murdock Posts 174 Last Nov-10
To Frank B. (Forum Janitor) [Msg # 129624.11 129624.10 ]

Maybe you need a multiuser database. I've used mysql, postgresql and sqlite. mysql and postgresql are multiuser, I am not sure about sqlite.

Backups are what everybody uses to protect their data. If corruption occurs, you only have to reinput data since the last backup. For a small operation, you could add all the invoices to the database at the end of each day and then do a backup.

If you want to have a separate file for each invoice as a backup, that can work with a database. You could write a script to extract the data from the invoice files and put it in the database (or accounting program) once a day. I do something similar to that using Python and sqlite.

I do not have any experience with current Linux accounting programs.

You have to report hours worked for the pay period for each employee to the Payroll service, usually have info (hourly wage, deductions, etc) on each employee so they can calculate everything.

HM
TANSTAAFL

#12 of 19 Posted Nov-4 3:30 PM

From Frank B. (Forum Janitor) Posts 4689 Last 9:03 AM
To HM Murdock [Msg # 129624.12 129624.11 ]

Bill:

>You have to report hours worked for the pay period for each employee to the Payroll service, usually have info (hourly wage, deductions, etc) on each employee so they can calculate everything.<

All my people are sub-contractors. I pay piecework.

>If you want to have a separate file for each invoice as a backup, that can work with a database. You could write a script to extract the data from the invoice files and put it in the database (or accounting program) once a day. I do something similar to that using Python and sqlite.<

That is kind of what I am doing with Calc. I imagine that it could be done using Base instead. But for what advantage? My current 'reports' are sheets that give me what I need 'on the fly'. I only have 8 or 10 people, so each one is represented by an identical sheet, with only a reference cell for the sheet that changes.

Frank.

-----------------------
Single booting Linux all day, every day, at home and at work.

#13 of 19 Posted Nov-5 11:34 PM

From kayzazajac Posts 15 Last Nov-22
To Frank B. (Forum Janitor) [Msg # 129624.13 129624.10 ]

>>
I also wonder if putting all the eggs into the same basket may open up problems. Now, in practice, this is probably not the case, and one can always back up the file. However, what are the issues regarding possible file corruption? What do big corporations that DO put all their eggs in one database basket do in these cases?<<

Three words: Backup, backup and backup. But, you should be doing that anyway. If your hard drive crashes, all of the files are gone. And, if some virus or corruption on your HD corrupts your spreadsheets, then you are going to have to worry about more than just the one file you originally found the corruption in, anyway.

>>My search for something else this time is not a question of scale, but more a question of building in more features. At present, each invoice represents the efforts of a single worker. With the expansion I am doing in the business, some invoices now represent the work of two different people (or possibly more in the future). I can write this into my current system if I spend a few days at it. However, any time I have to make major changes, everything is on the table again as far as finding a better way goes.<<

Database is definitely the way to go, but you should get some help with the database design. If you do this right, then you will never have to worry about how many people are involved in a job. The nice thing is that you should also be able to start looking at other information - like who takes how long to finish what, who are you giving the most work to, etc.

>>I assume, however, that they are not going to work from paper invoices. <<

Some actually will. Buy most will accept a basic spreadsheet with the appropriate information. Do yourself a favor, and talk to service providers in your area. It might actually be cheaper to do payroll this way.

-- Kayza Zajac

#14 of 19 Posted Nov-5 11:51 PM

From kayzazajac Posts 15 Last Nov-22
To Frank B. (Forum Janitor) [Msg # 129624.14 129624.12 ]

>>All my people are sub-contractors. I pay piecework.<<

In the US you do have to report the total amount paid to each consultant, if you paid them more that something like $900 over the course of the year. If they are employees paid piecework, you need to deduct taxes, and report that.

-- Kayza Zajac

#15 of 19 Posted Nov-6 6:50 AM

From Tim Bourne Posts 101 Last Nov-24
To kayzazajac [Msg # 129624.15 129624.14 ]

I also wonder if putting all the eggs into the same basket may open up problems.

My situation is rather different from yours, but it may give you some idea of what a database can do. I have a mail order software business, originally started as a sideline to consultancy, but now the only part of the business still running, since I retired from consultancy.

I've been maintaining a database since I started in 1986. Originally I used Paradox on PC DOS, then Paradox for Windows. A couple of years ago, when I started preparing to liberate myself from Windows, I switched to use Base in OOo. That does all I need - but I have no need of multi-user facilities. If I did, I think I could use Base with MySQL.

The database contains customer and product details, also all orders since the business started. Since I have to pay associated royalties for some products, it also contains for each product/associate combination the applicable royalty percentage, if any.

Regularly, either monthly or quarterly, I produce a sales report to feed into my main accounting system. At the same time I produce a royalty report for each associate. All these reports are produced using Base in conjunction with the OOo spreadsheet program, which I use to improve the report layout.

In addition, when I need them I can produce ad hoc report or on-screen enquiries - for example, what products has customer XXX bought, or which customers have product YYY, or which orders came in response to advert ZZZ. This sort of thing is the real power of a database; if it's properly structured, it can answer any question you care to ask.

Oh, and yes, backup is vital. Nowadays the software is pretty reliable and resilient, but even so a daily backup is essential, preferably on a different machine and ideally in a different building. If you have a web site with spare space, you can use FTP to keep a backup there.

Best wishes,
Tim Bourne.

#16 of 19 Posted Nov-6 9:25 AM

From Frank B. (Forum Janitor) Posts 4689 Last 9:03 AM
To kayzazajac [Msg # 129624.16 129624.13 ]

Kayza:

Yes, backups are a part of my life. All the files are created on one machine, but using several others linked by the network to create them. This allows ad-hoc multiuser, as each file is saved in sequentially numbered individual files. As they are all saved on the same machine, the user gets a warning if they are trying to save to a number that someone else has already used. Those files on the one machine are backed up regularly to my machine in my office. From there they are backed up twice/month to my laptop, and via 'sneakernet' to two other machines at home.

>Database is definitely the way to go, but you should get some help with the database design.<

This is my dilemma. I can see the advantages of a database, but the learning curve for me to produce one is steep. The learning curve for a database expert to learn the ins and outs of my business is also steep. As noted, my payroll is not 'standard' in the industry, and neither is my bonus program. Bonus kicks in after a contractor has invoiced above a certain dollar amount, and continues until maximum bonus amount is achieved. No one is going to use a 'boilerplate' database for the things I do. And, while a database expert could most certainly create what I need, a lot of it is going to be custom work at big dollars per hour. Ours is not a multinational corporation. :)

>The nice thing is that you should also be able to start looking at other information - like who takes how long to finish what, who are you giving the most work to, etc.<

I know what you are saying. However, the business is small enough that most of what I need to know is pretty much evident. If it continues to grow, that will no longer be the case. At what point do I NEED to make the change to something that does more analysis? I don't know.

>Some actually will. Buy most will accept a basic spreadsheet with the appropriate information. Do yourself a favor, and talk to service providers in your area. It might actually be cheaper to do payroll this way.<

That may be worthwhile.

Frank.

-----------------------
Single booting Linux all day, every day, at home and at work.

#17 of 19 Posted Nov-6 9:31 AM

From Frank B. (Forum Janitor) Posts 4689 Last 9:03 AM
To kayzazajac [Msg # 129624.17 129624.14 ]

Kayza:

Here in Canada that is not required. I report payment to contractors as an expense in our corporate filings. Contractors have the responsibility to report their own earnings. I assume that Revenue Canada makes the correlation between the two themselves.

Frank.

-----------------------
Single booting Linux all day, every day, at home and at work.

#18 of 19 Posted Nov-6 9:38 AM

From kayzazajac Posts 15 Last Nov-22
To Tim Bourne [Msg # 129624.18 129624.15 ]

I'm not the one who asked that question. And I do completely agree with you about the usefulness of a database.

-- Kayza Zajac

#19 of 19 Posted Nov-6 9:42 AM

From kayzazajac Posts 15 Last Nov-22
To Frank B. (Forum Janitor) [Msg # 129624.19 129624.16 ]

I think that if you get someone who can get the data design right, and then explains what he's done, and why, you should be able to do a lot of the rest without that steep of a learning curve. The programming languages are not all that different that advanced macros. It probably won't "elegant", but if you wind up writing code that doesn't scale well, you can always redo it, as long as you don't mess with the data design.
-- Kayza Zajac

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Need an accounting/payroll app.

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