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Message Area
Democrats

Democrats Afraid of Lawyers

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#1 of 71

     Posted Aug-29 11:21 AM   
Bob
 
From  Bob  Posts 6171  Last Nov-24
To  All      [Msg # 212752.1 ]    
Howard Dean has exposed the dirty secret of Obamacare. The president may be a serial liar but at least we can admire Dean for his candor, even if his statement probably didn’t come out quite the way he had intended. When asked why Obamacare does not address tort reform Dean had this priceless reply:

 “Here is why tort reform is not in the bill. When you go to pass a really enormous bill like that the more stuff you put in, the more enemies you make, right? And the reason why tort reform is not in the bill is because the people who wrote it did not want to take on the trial lawyers in addition to everybody else they were taking on, and that is the plain and simple truth.”

So Dean has exposed the real reason why Obamacare does nothing to rein in the out of control costs of liability lawsuits. Democrats are afraid of the trial lawyers who make fortunes off of lawsuits and do not want to antagonize them. Oddly, democrats have not been at all afraid to take on insurance companies, drug companies, corporate executives, GM and Chrysler, the finance industry, the CIA, or to make enemies of doctors, stockholders, police officers, and anyone who speaks out against Obamacare at townhalls,

The big difference, of course, is that lawyers are heavy campaign contributors to the Democratic party.

So the lack of tort reform in Obamacare has absolutely nothing to do with careful consideration of the best way to solve the healthcare problem. It was cynical politics, pure and simple. Thanks to Howard Dean for making that plain. It’s great to have a mole inside the Democratic party who lets the truth slip out once in awhile.


“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

– Winston Churchill


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#2 of 71

     Posted Aug-29 3:28 PM   
David C.
 
From  David C.  Posts 10305  Last 11:34 AM
To  Bob      [Msg # 212752.2 Message 212752.2 replying to 212752.1 212752.1 ]    

The big difference, of course, is that lawyers are heavy campaign contributors to the Democratic party.

No, the big difference is litigation accounts for 1% - 2 % of the total health care costs and it's, maybe, better to concentrate on the 98% - 99% reasons for the cost.

You, of course, have highlighted the logic in this. You have still alighted on a tiny part of the problem to make your bogus points.

That's precisely what a reasonable person would try to avoid.

You have just proved why that sensible approach that you are attacking was chosen.

It was an attempt to concentrate on the real issues and not let people, who have not real point to make, hijack the process with bogus diversions.

-David C. 

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#3 of 71

     Posted Aug-29 3:45 PM   
Jim
 
From  Jim  Posts 471  Last Nov-21
To  Bob      [Msg # 212752.3 Message 212752.3 replying to 212752.1 212752.1 ]    
<<So Dean has exposed the real reason why Obamacare does nothing to rein in the out of control costs of liability lawsuits.>>

Oh, good grief.    Your statement is the epitome of too silly because malpractice lawsuit awards are at a record low and yet insurance rates are at record highs and climbing.

Malpractice constitutes about 1 percent  of health care costs but the Republicans didn't tell you about that,  did they?


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#4 of 71

     Posted Aug-29 6:10 PM   
Bob
 
From  Bob  Posts 6171  Last Nov-24
To  David C.      [Msg # 212752.4 Message 212752.4 replying to 212752.2 212752.2 ]    

The big difference, of course, is that lawyers are heavy campaign contributors to the Democratic party.<

>No, the big difference is litigation accounts for 1% - 2 % of the total health care costs and it's, maybe, better to concentrate on the 98% - 99% reasons for the cost.<

Baloney,  as a former practicing physician Howard Dean has first hand knowledge of the ruinous effects of malpractice lawsuits.  If your claim were true he could have cited it in his answer, but he did not.  Instead he told the truth, democrats are too afraid to antagonize the trial lawyers who bankroll their campaigns with big contributions to address a major reason for high medical costs.

>You, of course, have highlighted the logic in this. You have still alighted on a tiny part of the problem to make your bogus points.<

I have identified a major part of the problem that Democrats are desperately trying to sweep under the rug. But Howard Dean, bless his heart, isn't as duplicitous as Obama and (perhaps inadvertently) let the cat out of the bag.

>It was an attempt to concentrate on the real issues and not let people, who have not real point to make, hijack the process with bogus diversions.<

Blame Howard Dean, he is the one who exposed the dirty secret of Obmacare.


“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

– Winston Churchill


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#5 of 71

     Posted Aug-29 6:24 PM   
koskter45©
 
From  koskter45©  Posts 488  Last Sep-27
To  All      [Msg # 212752.5 Message 212752.5 replying to 212752.4 212752.4 ]    
LOL! Anyone who has been a victim of malpractice (myself included) knows the insurance industry would love to have tort reform, so they won't have to payout.
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#6 of 71

     Posted Aug-29 7:32 PM   
David C.
 
From  David C.  Posts 10305  Last 11:34 AM
To  Bob      [Msg # 212752.6 Message 212752.6 replying to 212752.4 212752.4 ]    

Baloney,  as a former practicing physician Howard Dean has first hand knowledge of the ruinous effects of malpractice lawsuits

These days, the biggest barrier to excessive litigation is to improve the audit trail so doctors can prove their innocence.

The best way to do that is to use comprehensive EMRs which, you may have noticed, is a major part of Obama's thinking on this subject.

In the absence of such defensive data almost three quarters of attempts at litigation are settled out of court precisely because doctors cannot point to a documented proof that they were not at fault, and lawyers earn from these out of court payments.

Not only that, but a doctor can get between 10 and 25% discount on his litigation insurance premiums if he uses EMRs that are being heavily promoted by the president.

Why would he be doing that if what you say is the truth?

So, let's see . . .   it's only 1 - 2 % of the cost of health care and the president is promoting the very thing that would  reduce it even further.

And you are trying to push the notion he isn't doing anything about an important aspect of the bill for some false invented reason?

Answer is you are wrong to assume that litigation is the driving force you are trying to make out.  One way or the other.

-David C.


Edited Aug-29   by  David C.
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#7 of 71

     Posted Aug-29 8:57 PM   
Bob
 
From  Bob  Posts 6171  Last Nov-24
To  Jim      [Msg # 212752.7 Message 212752.7 replying to 212752.3 212752.3 ]    
<<So Dean has exposed the real reason why Obamacare does nothing to rein in the out of control costs of liability lawsuits.>>

>Oh, good grief.    Your statement is the epitome of too silly because malpractice lawsuit awards are at a record low and yet insurance rates are at record highs and climbing.<

Of course that does not even begin to address the full impact of malpractice lawsuits but don't let the facts get in the way of your story.

>Malpractice constitutes about 1 percent  of health care costs but the Republicans didn't tell you about that,  did they?<

Baloney, where is your careful analysis proving that claim?? From the Democrat talking points webpage??

“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

– Winston Churchill


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#8 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 11:41 AM   
Jim
 
From  Jim  Posts 471  Last Nov-21
To  Bob      [Msg # 212752.8 Message 212752.8 replying to 212752.7 212752.7 ]    
<<Of course that does not even begin to address the full impact of malpractice lawsuits but don't let the facts get in the way of your story.  >>

What is the "full impact" of malpractice lawsuits?
    Malpractice is a non-crisis because malpractice claims are actually pretty rare;  compensation is generally fair and payouts have not been rising any faster any faster than the overall rate of medical inflation.

If you want to see a decrease in malpractice litigation,  seek to end malpractice.   In the last 20 years,  study after study show a small percentage of physicians are responsible for over 50% total damages paid and less than 22%  were disciplined.

Licensing boards and professional association must do a better job of disciplining physicians who continuously put patients at risk.  Proper sanctioning can save lives.








.







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#9 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 12:23 PM   
gordonhofer
 
From  gordonhofer  Posts 31357  Last 9:43 AM
To  David C.      [Msg # 212752.9 Message 212752.9 replying to 212752.2 212752.2 ]    

No, the big difference is litigation accounts for 1% - 2 % of the total health care costs

I'm not so sure about that. Now, these figures are for insurance, but they show a cost of about 25% of the total cost for an employer based plan, or almost all of the cost (33/39 = 85%) for a family that has insurance through an employer.

link

Medical malpractice liability alone constitutes more than 10 percent of the U.S. tort tax, which by 2003 represented more than $3,300 for the average family of four, according to Tillinghast-Towers Perrin.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
The average employer-sponsored premium for a family of four costs close to $13,000 a year, and the employee foots about 30 percent of this cost


Edited Aug-30   by  gordonhofer

Edited Aug-31   by  Sysop Alex Krislov
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#10 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 12:28 PM   
gordonhofer
 
From  gordonhofer  Posts 31357  Last 9:43 AM
To  Jim      [Msg # 212752.10 Message 212752.10 replying to 212752.3 212752.3 ]    
Your statement is the epitome of too silly because malpractice lawsuit awards are at a record low

I'm afraid you're mistaken

. Tort Costs














Source: link
Edited Aug-31   by  Sysop Alex Krislov
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#11 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 12:42 PM   
Jim
 
From  Jim  Posts 471  Last Nov-21
To  gordonhofer      [Msg # 212752.11 Message 212752.11 replying to 212752.10 212752.10 ]    
Nope,  I'm not mistaken and,  unlike you,  I'm also not using tainted statistics.

Public Citzens reported in a study that for the third straight year payments on medical malpractice claims are at the lowest since the federal government's  NPDA began tracking in 1990.

According to Public Citizen between three and seven Americans die from medical errors for every one patient who receives a payment for a malpractice claim. There were 11,037 payments in 2008, 30% lower than the average in previous years. The value of the payments in 2008 was lowest or the second lowest on record depending on the method used to adjust for inflation.
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#12 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 12:53 PM   
othermeanders
 
From  othermeanders  Posts 532  Last Nov-24
To  Bob      [Msg # 212752.12 Message 212752.12 replying to 212752.1 212752.1 ]    
So Dean has exposed the real reason why Obamacare does nothing to rein in the out of control costs of liability lawsuits.

Yeah...the fact that conservatives can't point to a single state that instituted tort reform that saw costs decrease.

Oh wait...we're not supposed to let reality come in to the discussion, are we?
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#13 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 1:08 PM   
gordonhofer
 
From  gordonhofer  Posts 31357  Last 9:43 AM
To  Jim      [Msg # 212752.13 Message 212752.13 replying to 212752.11 212752.11 ]    
federal government's  NPDA

The National Parliamentary Debate Society? The National Portfolio Day Association? The Nichols Page Design Associates? Who?
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#14 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 1:11 PM   
Jim
 
From  Jim  Posts 471  Last Nov-21
To  gordonhofer      [Msg # 212752.14 Message 212752.14 replying to 212752.13 212752.13 ]    
National Physician Data base
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#15 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 1:39 PM   
gordonhofer
 
From  gordonhofer  Posts 31357  Last 9:43 AM
To  Jim      [Msg # 212752.15 Message 212752.15 replying to 212752.14 212752.14 ]    
National Physician Data base


http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=hhrdata_npdb_e
The National Physician Database (NPDB) contains data on fee-for-service physician payments in Canada.
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#16 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 2:58 PM   
Jim
 
From  Jim  Posts 471  Last Nov-21
To  gordonhofer      [Msg # 212752.16 Message 212752.16 replying to 212752.15 212752.15 ]    
Er....... we have one too.


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#17 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 3:02 PM   
David C.
 
From  David C.  Posts 10305  Last 11:34 AM
To  gordonhofer      [Msg # 212752.17 Message 212752.17 replying to 212752.10 212752.10 ]    

I'm afraid you're mistaken

Notice the title of the Y coordinate?

Cumulative percentage increase.

CUMULATIVE.

That explains a lot, does it not?

If the annual percentage increase was decreasing, the cumulative percentage increase would still show a rising line on the graph.

"Statistics are like a woman's bikini. What they reveal is interesting but what they conceal is vital"

-David C.

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#18 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 3:22 PM   
David C.
 
From  David C.  Posts 10305  Last 11:34 AM
To  gordonhofer      [Msg # 212752.18 Message 212752.18 replying to 212752.10 212752.10 ]    

I have inserted a graph showing a data set that starts at 10 and steps down to 0

It shows two lines.

One is the simple trend and the other is the cumulative trend.

I'm sure you'd agree that a set of data starting at 10 and reducing to 0 shows a reducing trend.

10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0   Looks pretty reducing to me.

The graph you have shown is a cumulative one, and, if I was being a little paranoid, was arranged like that so that people who didn't notice the title of the Y axis would think that there is an increasing trend in litigation costs when there isn't.

Being driven by political forces instead of a search for the truth is obviously pandemic at the moment.

Maybe because, as you just proved, it's so effective.

-David C.


Attachments
Name:   cumulative.JPGSize:   10 K

Edited Aug-30   by  David C.
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#19 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 3:56 PM   
keithedgerly
 
From  keithedgerly  Posts 5297  Last 7:41 AM
To  Bob      [Msg # 212752.19 Message 212752.19 replying to 212752.1 212752.1 ]    

Advocating Tort Reform as a means of reforming healthcare is a Red Herring. It will not reduce costs to any significant extent. We have had Tort Reform elsewhere and it hasn't reduced insurance rates.

The right to sue is a constitutionally protected right. The 7th Amendment gives us a right to litigate at Common Law in any matter over $25.

Article I of the constitution forbids congress to enact laws "impairing the obligation of contracts".

The 14th Amendment affords us all "equal protection of the laws", including civil law.

The 5th Amendment gives us rights against being deprived of life...or property, without due process of law and without just compensation.

And last but not least, the 9th Amendment gives us other rights, not enumerated.\

Where does Congress find the authority to limit these rights? By what provision of the US States Constitution do they hope to do so?

Do they hope to do so in order to promote the General Welfare? I don't see how they can get around the provision of the 5th Amendment that forbids a "taking" of property that would be legally due without just compensation.

No. No. No. Congress should not consider Tort Reform as a means of promoting the General Welfare. Indeed, I think it ironic in the extreme that appeals to limit constitutional rights for the purpose of the General Welfare would be deemed appropriate while denying the right to basic medical treatment which in and of itself would be an immense advancement of the General Welfare. Medical treatment is a right that no other civilized nation denies.

The whole subject is preposterous and Tort Reform is a Red Herring. It does not promote the General Welfare, it will not lower medical insurance costs and it is a deprivation of rights guaranteed by the US Constitution.

Keith

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#20 of 71

     Posted Aug-30 8:35 PM   
gordonhofer
 
From  gordonhofer  Posts 31357  Last 9:43 AM
To  Jim      [Msg # 212752.20 Message 212752.20 replying to 212752.16 212752.16 ]    
Er....... we have one too.

Then perhaps you can provide a link to it to support your "statistics."
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