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Science & Religion

Oh 'dem Bones

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#1 of 264

     Posted Oct-20 6:17 AM   
Omega
 
From  Omega  Posts 15730  Last Nov-24
To  KenR      [Msg # 168343.1 ]    

You are still rambling.  Stick to the question.

Present the genetic evidence that allows a life form with no bones, no need for bones and no gene for bones that allows it to produce a life form with bones.

I guess you keep beating around the bush because you have no answer.

k

 

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#2 of 264

     Posted Oct-20 11:35 AM   
CalS (Staff)
 
From  CalS (Staff)  Posts 8064  Last 1:29 AM
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.2 Message 168343.2 replying to 168343.1 168343.1 ]    
>>Present the genetic evidence that allows a life form with no bones, no need for bones and no gene for bones that allows it to produce a life form with bones.<<

You know, over the years you keep using this phrase. Why do you assume that a life form with no bones has "no need for bones"? Certainly a life form with no bones probably has no gene for bones (actually, it's a whole bunch of genes working together in sequence, not just one gene), but you always put that "no need for bones" in there.

Is it ever possible that an organism that doesn't have a particular characteristic, will be better off if it acquires that characteristic?

--Cal
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#3 of 264

     Posted Oct-21 5:38 AM   
Omega
 
From  Omega  Posts 15730  Last Nov-24
To  CalS (Staff)      [Msg # 168343.3 Message 168343.3 replying to 168343.2 168343.2 ]    

>>You know, over the years you keep using this phrase. Why do you assume that a life form with no bones has "no need for bones"? Certainly a life form with no bones probably has no gene for bones (actually, it's a whole bunch of genes working together in sequence, not just one gene), but you always put that "no need for bones" in there.<<

I use  "no need for bones" to emphasize that it seems to have gotten along quite well without them and according to evolutionists, it would have taken at leat 1000's of years to develope them. 
"Actually there is no evidence that a "whole bunch of genes" are necessary to develop bones.  If that was true, it make the problem harder to explain.

>>Is it ever possible that an organism that doesn't have a particular characteristic, will be better off if it acquires that characteristic?<<

Possibly but irrelevant.  It can't acquire a characteristisc for which its parents did not have the gene.

k

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#4 of 264

     Posted Oct-21 8:49 AM   
CalS (Staff)
 
From  CalS (Staff)  Posts 8064  Last 1:29 AM
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.4 Message 168343.4 replying to 168343.3 168343.3 ]    
>>I use  "no need for bones" to emphasize that it seems to have gotten along quite well without them and according to evolutionists, it would have taken at leat 1000's of years to develope them. 
"Actually there is no evidence that a "whole bunch of genes" are necessary to develop bones.  If that was true, it make the problem harder to explain.
<<

Since you won't believe any evolutionary example I give, here's a non-evolutionary one. It took mankind thousands of years to develop writing. Clearly mankind did not NEED writing, since we didn't die out before it for the lack of it. Are you better off with it or without it?

And no, it doesn't make it harder to explain. Consider the shark. Sharks have no bones.

>>Is it ever possible that an organism that doesn't have a particular characteristic, will be better off if it acquires that characteristic?<<

Possibly but irrelevant.  It can't acquire a characteristisc for which its parents did not have the gene.

But you do agree that it's possible that an organism that doesn't have a particular characteristic will be better off it it acquires that characteristic.

--Cal
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#5 of 264

     Posted Oct-21 12:14 PM   
Patricia O. [Stàff]
 
From  Patricia O. [Stàff]  Posts 11222  Last 2:08 AM
To  CalS (Staff)      [Msg # 168343.5 Message 168343.5 replying to 168343.4 168343.4 ]    
>>> Consider the shark. Sharks have no bones. <<<
Uhoh.   That's going to leave a mark.
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#6 of 264

     Posted Oct-21 9:49 PM   
KenR
 
From  KenR  Posts 203  Last Nov-24
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.6 Message 168343.6 replying to 168343.3 168343.3 ]    

< Possibly but irrelevant. It can't acquire a characteristisc for which its parents did not have the gene.

Do you know what "mutate" means?

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#7 of 264

     Posted Oct-21 10:20 PM   
KenR
 
From  KenR  Posts 203  Last Nov-24
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.7 Message 168343.7 replying to 168343.1 168343.1 ]    

< You are still rambling. .....

Just replying to your "rambling" posts.

< Stick to the question. Present the genetic evidence that allows a life form with no bones, no need for bones and no gene for bones that allows it to produce a life form with bones.

Why would you think that I would have the details of the genetic evolution of cartilage to bone? Any more than you would be able to explain the molecular compostion of your hair, or how ones and zeros enable us to communicate in cyberspace.

But I am still curious, why would you have more doubts that soft body tissue evolved into cartilage and then into bone, than that a snake "talked"? Or that the earth "stood still"?

Oh, and have you heard that recently they have found "Ardi", our oldest human ancestor from 4.4 million years ago.

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#8 of 264

     Posted Oct-21 11:06 PM   
Mel [Staff]
 
From  Mel [Staff]  Posts 18142  Last 2:23 AM
To  KenR      [Msg # 168343.8 Message 168343.8 replying to 168343.7 168343.7 ]    

>>Oh, and have you heard that recently they have found "Ardi", our oldest human ancestor from 4.4 million years ago.<<

I would hope so. On Oct. 1st, I started a thread on the topic.

http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ws-religion&tid=168213

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#9 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 5:52 AM   
Omega
 
From  Omega  Posts 15730  Last Nov-24
To  CalS (Staff)      [Msg # 168343.9 Message 168343.9 replying to 168343.4 168343.4 ]    

>>Since you won't believe any evolutionary example I give, here's a non-evolutionary one. It took mankind thousands of years to develop writing. <<

You have no evidence to support that claim.  Also, you can't compare what man's mind might do with what biology will do.  Man's minds wander all over the place looking for truth, Biology follows a direct  path to do exactly what it was designed for.

>>Clearly mankind did not NEED writing, since we didn't die out before it for the lack of it. Are you better off with it or without it?<<

Irrelevant.

>>And no, it doesn't make it harder to explain. Consider the shark. Sharks have no bones.<<

Why do sharks have no bones?  Many life forms have no bones.  Why is that?

>>But you do agree that it's possible that an organism that doesn't have a particular characteristic will be better off it it acquires that characteristic.<<

No I don't but you are continuing to avoid answering the question---how is genetically possible for a life form with no gene for bones to produce an offspring with bones.

k

 



 

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#10 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 6:00 AM   
Omega
 
From  Omega  Posts 15730  Last Nov-24
To  KenR      [Msg # 168343.10 Message 168343.10 replying to 168343.6 168343.6 ]    

>>Do you know what "mutate" means?

More appropriate, do you know what a mutation does?

k

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#11 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 6:03 AM   
Omega
 
From  Omega  Posts 15730  Last Nov-24
To  KenR      [Msg # 168343.11 Message 168343.11 replying to 168343.7 168343.7 ]    

>>Why would you think that I would have the details of the genetic evolution of cartilage to bone?<<

I will take this as an admission that you have no scientific evidence to support what you believe.  If you ever get any, get back to me.

k

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#12 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 10:16 AM   
Martin Alter
 
From  Martin Alter  Posts 1706  Last Nov-24
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.12 Message 168343.12 replying to 168343.9 168343.9 ]    
>>   Why do sharks have no bones?   <<

Because cartilage does the job for them.

>>   how is genetically possible for a life form with no gene for bones to produce an offspring with bones.  <<

You have been pointed to this answer more than once, including by me just the other day, with a reference to a paper written in 2002.  Did you read it?  And why do you persist in asking the same question that has been answered repeatedly?
  Either you don't read the answers, don't understand the answers, or cannot absorb the answers because they conflict with your GODDIDIT preconception?

It's high time you stopped asking a question which has been asked and answered repeatedly.  If you wish to have other objections to objective reality, by all means demonstrate those objectives, but give up on this one.  It's enough.
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#13 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 10:17 AM   
Martin Alter
 
From  Martin Alter  Posts 1706  Last Nov-24
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.13 Message 168343.13 replying to 168343.10 168343.10 ]    
>>  

>>Do you know what "mutate" means?

More appropriate, do you know what a mutation does?  <<

First, you've failed to answer his question.

Second, you are not the arbiter of what is appropriate or more appropriate or less appropriate. 

Third, he has repeatedly demonstrated that he knows what a mutation does.  Can you demonstrate the same?

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#14 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 10:18 AM   
Martin Alter
 
From  Martin Alter  Posts 1706  Last Nov-24
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.14 Message 168343.14 replying to 168343.11 168343.11 ]    

>>   I will take this as an admission that you have no scientific evidence to support what you believe.  If you ever get any, get back to me.  <<

People have gotten back to you on this repeatedly and you have simply ignored them.  Your remarks on this are beyond xxxxxxxxxxxx.  They are intellectually xxxxxxxxx.

edited to remove rules violation - gary


Edited Oct-22   by  Gary Dean [Staff]
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#15 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 11:37 AM   
Loren
 
From  Loren  Posts 5061  Last Nov-24
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.15 Message 168343.15 replying to 168343.9 168343.9 ]    

...  Man's minds wander all over the place looking for truth, Biology follows a direct  path to do exactly what it was designed for.

So millions of species were "designed" to go extinct?  What would be the advantage of that?

Seems to me that if it were an actual design, that it's a very very stupid one.

Loren


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#16 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 11:40 AM   
Loren
 
From  Loren  Posts 5061  Last Nov-24
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.16 Message 168343.16 replying to 168343.9 168343.9 ]    

... how is genetically possible for a life form with no gene for bones to produce an offspring with bones.

It isn't.  No such rapid development of a physical characteristic is postulated in evolutionary theory.

Every organism differs from its immediate progenitor(s) to some degree.  Over time, accumulated differences may result in dramatic changes, especially when subject to selection pressures that favor one difference over others.

You've been told this, repeatedly.

Loren


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#17 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 1:02 PM   
Gary Z
 
From  Gary Z  Posts 11012  Last Nov-24
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.17 Message 168343.17 replying to 168343.11 168343.11 ]    
kermit:]
»»Ken:   Why would you think that I would have the details of the genetic evolution of cartilage to bone?

»»You:    I will take this as an admission that you have no scientific evidence to support what you believe.  If you ever get any, get back to me.

kermit, this information has been given to you in Msg # 168179.269.  You ignored it; you never even acknowledged that the information had been posted to you.

Don't you think it is a bit xxxxxxxxxxxx to ask for information that has already been given to you? 

By their fruits, kermit.  By their fruits.
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Edited Oct-22   by  Gary Dean [Staff]
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#18 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 1:44 PM   
CalS (Staff)
 
From  CalS (Staff)  Posts 8064  Last 1:29 AM
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.18 Message 168343.18 replying to 168343.9 168343.9 ]    

>>Since you won't believe any evolutionary example I give, here's a non-evolutionary one. It took mankind thousands of years to develop writing. <<

>>You have no evidence to support that claim.  Also, you can't compare what man's mind might do with what biology will do.  Man's minds wander all over the place looking for truth, Biology follows a direct  path to do exactly what it was designed for.<<

I don't? Really? I guess all that archaeology that's been done over the past several hundred years just didn't happen, then? Hieroglyphs appeared fully formed and never changed? The whole thing about a picture of an ox's head developing into an aleph and then into the letter A was just made up by a bored dictionary publisher?

--Cal
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#19 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 1:51 PM   
Patricia O. [Stàff]
 
From  Patricia O. [Stàff]  Posts 11222  Last 2:08 AM
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.19 Message 168343.19 replying to 168343.9 168343.9 ]    
>>> avoid answering the question---how is genetically possible for a life form with no gene for bones to produce an offspring with bones. <<<
It's a silly question, because no one thinks any such thing is possible.
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#20 of 264

     Posted Oct-22 8:39 PM   
Tobster E
 
From  Tobster E  Posts 1416  Last Nov-24
To  Omega      [Msg # 168343.20 Message 168343.20 replying to 168343.3 168343.3 ]    

>>I use "no need for bones" to emphasize that it seems to have gotten along quite well without them and according to evolutionists, it would have taken at leat 1000's of years to develope them.
"Actually there is no evidence that a "whole bunch of genes" are necessary to develop bones. If that was true, it make the problem harder to explain.<<

Actually, I checked this out with my home grown scientist, and I am lucky enough to say my daughter says that it is a series of genes that control the development of bones during development. (g) I will take her word on this, we certainly paid enough for her to learn this.

Also, you are wrong on how long it took to develop vertebrates, it took millions of years.

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Science & Religion

Oh 'dem Bones

  
 
     

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