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Super Freakonomics

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#1 of 11

     Posted Nov-2 12:52 AM   
Danny Low
 
From  Danny Low  Posts 97  Last 12:41 AM
To  All      [Msg # 107182.1 ]    

This is the followup to Freakonomics and like the previous book, it explores from an economic viewpoint various human activities.

The first activity is prostitution. The average prostitute in Chicago's south side works, on the average, 13 hours at about $27 per hour. Because it is a part time job, your typical prostitute also works a variety of other jobs, some of them on the books. Contrary to Hollywood pop culture and MSNBC exposes, pimps actually perform a useful service. A prostitute working with a pimp makes more money despite the 25% commission taken by the pimp. Pimps hustle up additional customers and make sure the police do not hassle their girls. In the south side of Chicago many prostitutes only work part time for pimps and often operate independent of them. The relationship between pimps and prostitutes seem to be purely professional.

The next activity is why doctors kill so many of their patients. This is very interesting. Actually the subject is why terrorists should buy life insurance but most of the chapter is about why doctors cannot effectively treat patients and often kill them instead. There are more and more information being put out to allow consumers to judge the quality of the doctors and hospitals. However this chapter spends a great deal of time looking at how this data can be misleading. For example, the best doctors often have the highest mortality rates for their patients. The reason is the worst cases tend to go to the best doctors. So no matter how good a doctor is, the mortality rate is going to be high. For most people this chapter is worth the price of the book.

The next activity is altruism and apathy. It has long been the belief among economists that people are basically altruistic and they have conducted laboratory experiments that show this. However one economist, Dr. John List, saw too many examples of greedy behavior in real life. So he conducted some variations of the altruism experiments and found that under the right rules, people were not as altruistic as the original experiments indicated. This leads to an exploration of apathy and the Kitty Genovese murder. It turns out that the common known "facts" were wrong. There were only about half a dozen witnesses instead of the 38 commonly cited. There were only two attacks and they took place far enough apart in space that witnesses to the first could not have seen the second and vice versa. Finally this was before 911 so when someone called the police they did not response quickly. It appears that people did response appropriately to the attacks but the circumstances of the attacks meant that it was not clear whether she was being attacked or having a drunken brawl with a boyfriend.

The final subject is global warming and how the current solutions such as cap and trade will not work. Instead the book explores how past environmental crisis were solved by simple technical solutions rather then complex economic solutions. Then the books explores some of the possible technical solutions being developed now. This chapter is probably the most interested for SF fans as most of the solutions are very science fictional except that there are real scientists and companies developing and testing the solutions today. It is very factual but quite fantastic.

Danny

 

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#2 of 11

     Posted Nov-2 10:28 AM   
John in Detroit
 
From  John in Detroit  Posts 967  Last Nov-24
To  Danny Low      [Msg # 107182.2 Message 107182.2 replying to 107182.1 107182.1 ]    
Danny... I was going to make a comment on the statement that the best doctors have the highest mortality rate.....

But then I read the next sentence, which was, of course, the comment I was about to make.

Some good points there.

Another job of Pimps (in regard to the professional ladies) is to help insure that the "John" (I don't really care for that title for their customers for some reason) treat them properly... If Said Customer batters and/or kills his service girl... The Pimp may well have a couple of "His boys" pay said "john" a visit and convince him of the error of his ways.. Or teach him to sing soprano, whichever they feel is more effective.

Edited Nov-2   by  John in Detroit
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#3 of 11

     Posted Nov-12 4:31 AM   
Howard Cherniack (Cherns)
 
From  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)  Posts 26  Last Nov-24
To  Danny Low      [Msg # 107182.3 Message 107182.3 replying to 107182.1 107182.1 ]    
...It has long been the belief among economists that people are basically altruistic and they have conducted laboratory experiments that show this...
I haven't read the book and don't know if this is what it says or if you're misreading it, but as someone with a graduate-school minor in economics, and a continuing interest in, and belief in the explanatory power of, microeconomics, I have to disagree.

It has been axiomatic among all the economists I've ever heard of that people primarily seek their own ends.  (There may be cases where these "ends" might include some altruism--that is, sacrifice for the sake of others--but this cannot be assumed.)  Most economists I am familiar with believe, along with Adam Smith, that, under certain circumstances, individual self-serving may end up serving community needs.  Many economists are interested in cases where these circumstances do not hold (usually given the shorthand names externalities, natural monopolies, and public goods), and a set of commonly-agreed-on rules can channel individual self-interest into solutions that advantage all.  (The question of altruism comes up most often in relation to public goods--why are not 100% of the users of public goods like PBS radio stations "free riders"?  For externalities, altruism may come up in discussions of "the tragedy of the commons," aka "The Prisoner's Dilemma.")

Does the book give any citations for this alleged long-held belief?

A couple of other thoughts about the book based solely on your report (I intend to read it myself):

Perhaps there are some benevolent and/or businesslike pimps, or maybe they're all in Chicago.  Doubtless there are all kinds.  The ones we hear about here tend to be the ones who pick up young (12+) runaways from rural and/or abusive homes, seduce or rape them, addict them to heroin, and sell them as chattels.  Certainly the young people I see on our local "kiddie stroll" do not look like independent entrepreneurs enjoying remunerative part-time employment.  Or the "people traffickers" who bring in illegal immigrants and make them work their debts off, males in sweatshops and young women on their backs for long days and nights.  Maybe the book makes some distinction between "good" and "bad" pimps?

I will be particularly interested in the book's approach to environmental action.  I personally have doubts about the complexities and loopholes of "cap and trade"--what could be better than a simple application of market economics by (as the economists say) "internalizing the externalities" by adding a tax to environmentally-negative goods and services and distributing the revenues equally, reducing those goods and services without making people poorer?  This would even encourage research and development of the kinds of solutions the book (reportedly) hopes will emerge, like deii ex machina.
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#4 of 11

     Posted Nov-13 4:29 AM   
Danny Low
 
From  Danny Low  Posts 97  Last 12:41 AM
To  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)      [Msg # 107182.4 Message 107182.4 replying to 107182.3 107182.3 ]    

Does the book give any citations for this alleged long-held belief?

Read the book. Until you have done so, your disagreements are meaningless as they are based on your prejudices rather than any actual facts that you know.

Danny


 

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#5 of 11

     Posted Nov-13 2:28 PM   
Howard Cherniack (Cherns)
 
From  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)  Posts 26  Last Nov-24
To  Danny Low      [Msg # 107182.5 Message 107182.5 replying to 107182.4 107182.4 ]    
Read the book. Until you have done so, your disagreements are meaningless as they are based on your prejudices rather than any actual facts that you know.
I certainly do intend to read both books.  In the meantime, there are at least two things that I know as facts, not prejudices:
  1. You claim that the book claims that "...It has long been the belief among economists that people are basically altruistic..."  I know this because I read your post, and copied&pasted the sentence from it.
  2. It is not true that "...It has long been the belief among economists that people are basically altruistic..."  I know this because I have studied economics, not just picked up a factoid from a maverick book.
As it happens, an excerpt of the book's chapter on altruism is available online.  On the first page of the excerpt we find "Economists have traditionally assumed that the typical person makes rational decisions in line with his own self- interest."  Seems to me that "traditionally assumed" covers pretty much the same ground as "long been the belief."  (The "experiments" cited seem more aimed at ideas of "fairness" than "altruism.")  We also find that organ donations, which are described as altruistic (failing, I would argue, to make the distinction between live and post-mortem donations--the latter are essentially costless to the donor), are falling 'way behind demand in the US.  And later on we find the conclusions, based on the work of John List, that essentially confirm what "[e]conomists have traditionally assumed" about self-interest.  No big surprises here, and nothing, in this excerpt at least, to support your claim about the long-held beliefs of economists--indeed on the contrary.

(The bit about the canvas tote bag is in line with the findings of a study I was going to mention earlier, Mancur Olson's well-known 1965 work The Logic of Collective Action: Public Goods and the Theory of Groups, which addresses "public goods," altruism, and "free riders," and essentially comes to the same sorts of conclusions as the ones that List apparently does.)

In short, unless there is another chapter in the book that deals with altruism and does say what you say it says about the long-held beliefs of economists (contradicting what it says here), this whole kerfuffle seems to stem from your apparent misreading of the book, and incorrectly reporting what it says.  It brings to my mind the whole "physics of moving bodies" "debate" based on your and (especially) Jon's misreading of a remark on a web page, and misunderstanding of high-school physics.

Now, the book is undoubtedly interesting and contains some worthwhile insights.  My major objection was to one factually-incorrect sentence in your post, just as I earlier attempted to correct one of your misstatements about "October Surprise" (about which you continually attempted to change the subject rather than admit that you were wrong).  I've been on this forum for a long time, and have made the occasional factually-incorrect statement from time to time; when the error has been pointed out to me, I've usually acknowledged it immediately and thanked the person who pointed it out, rather than shouting or stonewalling or changing the subject.  I believe that this enhances rather than detracts from my credibility.  Just saying...    Cheers, --Howard

Edited Nov-13   by  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)
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#6 of 11

     Posted Nov-17 10:56 PM   
Danny Low
 
From  Danny Low  Posts 97  Last 12:41 AM
To  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)      [Msg # 107182.6 Message 107182.6 replying to 107182.5 107182.5 ]    

 My major objection was to one factually-incorrect sentence in your post, just as I earlier attempted to correct one of your misstatements about "October Surprise" (about which you continually attempted to change the subject rather than admit that you were wrong).

Referencing an old posting is a nothing but a thinly disguise personal attack. And saying that someone changes the subject rather that admit they are wrong is another personal attack that is as old as Usenet. In neither of these cases have you provided the actual postings so others can judge for themselves whether you are right. This means you only made an unsubstantiated claim about my integrity. That is a pure personal attack. Since this is what I have come to expect from you from yours past posting as proven by this posting, I will put you in my ignore file.

Danny

 

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#7 of 11

     Posted Nov-18 12:27 AM   
Howard Cherniack (Cherns)
 
From  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)  Posts 26  Last Nov-24
To  Danny Low      [Msg # 107182.7 Message 107182.7 replying to 107182.6 107182.6 ]    
Referencing an old posting is a nothing but a thinly disguise personal attack.
I don't think that I've heard that rule of netiquette before.  Is the idea that you may have been wrong-headed before, but maybe you've taken some smart pills since, so it's unfair to bring up the previous time?  Or have we entered the zone of Gene Wolfe's Soldier of Arete, in which we just don't remember anything that happened before today?
And saying that someone changes the subject rather that admit they are wrong is another personal attack that is as old as Usenet.
You are correct, and I was reprimanded by the SysOp for making this suggestion.  But I'm sure that people have been trying to change the subject rather than admit that they were wrong since 'way 'way before Usenet--is pointing this out really a "personal attack," or just an attempt to get back to the topic at hand?  I had an alternate suggestion as well, again one that the SysOp didn't like.  If I'm wrong in suggesting this, I would love to hear the real reason. In the meantime, let me just note that you have failed to respond to my IMHO well-documented claim that you have misrepresented what Super-Freakonomics says about altruism, instead changing the subject to your hurt feelings--instead of admitting that you were wrong, or what??
In neither of these cases have you provided the actual postings so others can judge for themselves whether you are right. This means you only made an unsubstantiated claim about my integrity.
I am more than willing--eager, in fact--to substantiate my claims.

The long thread, which is pretty far-ranging and includes lots of other stuff, in which you and (primarily) Jon invent a new branch of physics to shore up a misreading of an expert's web site about train stopping distances, starts around this message and my reply, and meanders around, including a lot of condescension and shouting from Jon, and ending with the most ungracious concession (from him, not you) that it has ever been my glee to receive.

The thread in which you appear (at least) to be changing the subject rather than admit that you were wrong about what the term "October Surprise" popularly refers to starts around around here, and my reply.

Happy to oblige; Let Facts be submitted to a candid world.  In the meantime, would you care to address my points about your misreading of the book, or would you rather change the subject?
Since this is what I have come to expect from you from yours past posting as proven by this posting...
Hey, wait--I thought that "Referencing an old posting is a nothing but a thinly disguise personal attack."  So it's ok for you but not for me?
...I will put you in my ignore file.
I'm happy enough to have the last word in this matter.  Cheers, --Howard



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#8 of 11

     Posted Nov-21 10:57 PM   
Howard Cherniack (Cherns)
 
From  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)  Posts 26  Last Nov-24
To  Danny Low      [Msg # 107182.8 Message 107182.8 replying to 107182.1 107182.1 ]    
I still have to read the book, but in the meantime I thought you might be interested in a response to what Super Freakonomics says about climate change, including the charge of misquoting one of their sources: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aVKXZg_Z.vMY       Cheers, --Howard
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#9 of 11

     Posted Nov-22 12:00 AM   
4merCL
 
From  4merCL  Posts 103  Last Nov-24
To  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)      [Msg # 107182.9 Message 107182.9 replying to 107182.8 107182.8 ]    

Howard --

There is something hinky about that Bloomberg link, but I'm not sure what.

Best regards,  4merCL

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#10 of 11

     Posted Nov-23 3:11 AM   
Howard Cherniack (Cherns)
 
From  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)  Posts 26  Last Nov-24
To  4merCL      [Msg # 107182.10 Message 107182.10 replying to 107182.9 107182.9 ]    
Not exactly sure what "hinky" means in this context, but many thanks for pointing out that it doesn't work.  For some reason, some spaces got inserted (by me? not intentionally) into it; if you remove these, the link works.  So let me try again: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aVKXZg_Z.vMY&#160

Thanks again.  Cheers, --H

(I just tried it in Preview--seemed to work.)
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#11 of 11

     Posted Nov-23 11:24 AM   
4merCL
 
From  4merCL  Posts 103  Last Nov-24
To  Howard Cherniack (Cherns)      [Msg # 107182.11 Message 107182.11 replying to 107182.10 107182.10 ]    

>>  Not exactly sure what "hinky" means in this context, but many thanks for pointing out that it doesn't work.  <<

Even I could not give you a precise definition, but you obviously understood the essential point being made.

BTW, I had tried myself to eliminate some spaces that I suspected did not belong. However, my effort was ineffectual, but I suppose there might have been an extra space or another invisible character associated with the line wrap.

Best regards,  4merCL

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